250 FO's

[aloft]

If training is through and complete shouldnt a 250 hr FO be able to handle the basics of the job?

I ask because doesnt the military take even lower time pilots and stick them right seat of large transport aircraft or in single seat fighters?

If people an be trained to handle an F-15, F-22 or to sit right seat in a C-5 or C-17 at sub 250 hours, then I think they can be trained to handle an RJ.

As others have said, the military's training practices are very different from civilian ones. However, most military types don't speak terribly well of fresh-outta-training military pilots either. Most will tell you that a brand new fighter pilot is a greater danger to himself and his/her flight lead than to any adversary. Sounds a lot like a wet-commercial RJ FO to me.

 

[jtrain609]

And you think the company really cares about turning out quality pilots like the military does? All their training program does is check a bunch of part 121 boxes. If the company had their way all the FO training would be is three bounces in the sim, and telling all the pilots to read the FOM, and all the other books, and that IOE starts in a week.


A skipper at the old mans commuter airline once said "I've never met an FO worth his weight in fuel". Of course this was flying a turboprop that could be flown single pilot part 91, but the past couple of years were probably the closest that the statement should ever get to being true. I cant imagine the usefulness of an FO that has 190TT out of a part 141 program that has had his hand held the entire time, just taught enough to pass the ride, and probably does not have any "real" PIC time. They were always getting answers from dispatch departments on go/no go decisions, and telling them where to fly.

He's still known for saying that about FO's in the jet

 

[Socal321]

It sounds like you are trying to say that you are restricted to upgrade to the saab. That isn't true. If that is what you are saying you understand it wrong and I've read other useless "information" from various other forums all from people who heard something they didn't understand at the interview. Couldn't care less what your friend says or thinks he knows.

After all your walk and talk bout pulling out the charts, yeah we have the RNAV addon. It is mel'able of course and sometimes we pull out those jep charts, or what my fo's sometimes call them when I have mine out, "sectionals".

FO on a CRJ is not ballast. The crew on a Saab have a lot more work to do than the CRJ crew and it keeps you occupied. That is some of the reason I have a real hard time imagining myself giving turboprop life up.

I know you had only one question up there, but so much of what you said needed to be commented on I had to throw a few more paragraphs in there. I cannot hear your tone on this post, but I'd be careful about being so flippant about CRJ FO's, many of them upgraded just fine into the Saab and make great captains. They just had to work harder during training.

jynxiejoe, I'm not sure about your ramblings about sectionals, other forums, my friend, or CRJ fos but instead of all the insults about nothing(read my post again, don't know where you got the hostile tone from) as far as the uprades you could have just said if you can hold CRJ Ca you don't have to go to the Saab. I didn't intervew at xj just their website said the normal progression for upgrades is to the saab of course based on senioirty.

 

[Socal321]

Also, I would point out we've had quite a few Saab FO's upgrade to CRJ 900 captains (I'd be willing to bet close to 40% of our RJ captains were Saab FO's). Which further confuses me why you'd say something like you did unless you are completely clueless on how airline seniority lists work. Perhaps you'd care to explain.

huh? What do seniority lists and my understanding of them have anything to do with it? I was referring to the failure rates of RJ FOs to Tprop CAs not the other way around. We know it's easier to go from hands on to automation of the jet.

 

[BobDDuck]

We know it's easier to go from hands on to automation of the jet.

I dunno. Ask some of the Legacy guys about how some super senior (experienced?) steam gauge 737 captains did when they had to transition to Airbus.

Automation can whoop your butt just as quick as having to transition to the old school world of /A aircraft.

 

[MikeD]

I dunno. Ask some of the Legacy guys about how some super senior (experienced?) steam gauge 737 captains did when they had to transition to Airbus.

Automation can whoop your butt just as quick as having to transition to the old school world of /A aircraft.

Going from the A-model A-10 to the F-117 world was the same for me.

Butt = whooped. In fact, in initial training, they try to pair you with an IP from the same aircraft background as you in order to speak the same language. I was assigned to Grog the IP.

But once transitioned, what a great experience to be able to do both worlds with relative ease.

 

[derg]

The 737-200 whipped my ass big time coming from the 1900.

Moving to a more advanced airplane isn't necessarily easier. Perhaps I'm a dork, but the 1900 was simple because it involved muscle and my MEI skills transferred right over without the hassle of having to deal with mixtures, manifold pressure, cowl flaps and that damned Ray-Jay manual waste gates... GRR!

The 737-200 kicked my butt because of the automation and not reverting back to my primal instincts of turning off the autopilot, autothrottles and flying the darned airplane manually. You have to learn an airplanes language on how to get it to perform the way you want it to perform... and you're going to have continual disagreements with it.

Don't even get me started on transitioning to the MD-88/90.

Boeing builds planes, Douglas built character.

Technology and User Friendliness are not proportionally related.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Doug, you posting from your iPhone from BGR?


There's a Southernjets 763 that was trying to go from JFK to FCO that had a bunch of blue lights around it. Me thinks someone had "flu like symptoms" Weather those symptoms are from a cold or lick'er is yet to be determined.

 

[derg]

I'll bet you someone noshing on a homemade ham sandwich had the sniffles!

Nah, it's not me, I'm living large in the S-D-L this evening.

Let me see who that was so I can give 'em hell!

 

[MikeD]

There's a Southernjets 763 that was trying to go from JFK to FCO that had a bunch of blue lights around it....

Did it taxi into a dead-end taxiway cul-de-sac at night?












Ba-da-bing! I'll be here all week!!!

 

[derg]

Oh no way, the captain's one of my homies. Not a whole heck of a lot older than I and a fairly senior ER captain.

I'm going to have to give him hell fo SHOW now!

 

[derg]

I got the straight dope on what happened, but it's not going on the internet, I'm sure you understand. Didn't sound like a fun evening at all for them.

 

[Polar742]

I got the straight dope on what happened, but it's not going on the internet, I'm sure you understand. Didn't sound like a fun evening at all for them.

Anytime I read or hear something like you just wrote, I'm glad the crew got the jet on the ground safely and I'm not doing the paperwork.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Heh, I'm sure it will be in the paper in the morning.


I flew the little put put plane in and saw them over on the "other side" with lots of shiny lights. Didn't ask any questions of the ATC guys.

Its always amusing the sort of crap that drops in up here.


Hmm southernjets.com shows them leaving at 215 local after another jet comes up from JFK......dang that sucks. Makes for a long night.

 

[derg]

My lips are sealed! Dammit, and I'm always a gossip queen too. This is hard!

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Yup, it's important. The captain isn't a god nor is he completely omniscient.

I've flown with a few guys that would beg to differ on that point...I don't know how but CRM isn't in their vocab.

a "new hire" FO at Brown and a "new hire" FO at a bottom feeder commuter are two entirely different animals.

:yeahthat:

The 737-200 whipped my ass big time coming from the 1900.
QUOTE]

Dang Doug, that is one heck of jump. The Control Wheel Steering and the way the Flight Director doesn't talk to the autopilot must have been a real hoot for ya back then.

I did my 737 ride with an F-16 pilot. He was a good stick but had a hard time getting his mind wrapped around the fact the at the A/P and FD were 2 seperate items.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

The 250 hr FO Motto

 

[derg]

Well, it was a -200ADV so it had the upgraded autopilot, not the 727-style "Block V/IV" thing.

Well, we had two -200's from some defunct Irish company that we called the "Twisted Sisters" with the 727-style autopilot, but after a while, they kept them off Express.

 

[jynxyjoe]

huh? What do seniority lists and my understanding of them have anything to do with it? I was referring to the failure rates of RJ FOs to Tprop CAs not the other way around. We know it's easier to go from hands on to automation of the jet.

I was more commenting on how screwed up your view was on how pilots upgrade at an airline. XJ is a good example of how seniority is everything, not the equipment you fly.

jynxiejoe, I'm not sure about your ramblings about sectionals, other forums, my friend, or CRJ fos but instead of all the insults about nothing(read my post again, don't know where you got the hostile tone from) as far as the uprades you could have just said if you can hold CRJ Ca you don't have to go to the Saab. I didn't intervew at xj just their website said the normal progression for upgrades is to the saab of course based on senioirty.

If you don't understand my comments then read again. If you don't want to understand then don't reply.

As I understand it, at XJ when you upgrade you got to the saab even if you're on the RJ. That's a real recipe for failure no matter how much time you have because of complacency. As I understand it from a friend of mine who flys the CRJ7/9, the FO is basically ballast because the CRJ operates itself. The tprop on the other hand is hands on plus you actually have to know where you're at the whole time with the jeps charts out! Imagine that!!! Or do you guys have gps?

Other than the "Imagine that" comment I feel I need to comment on everything you wrote:
You are wrong about how we upgrade (see previous explanations).| It's not a recipe for failure, I made it through just fine and the beech is no where near as complicated as the Saab.| FO's on CRJ's are not ballast even though we like to joke that they are. CRJ's don't operate themselves and I'm surprised more CRJ FO's on this forum haven't spoken up.| You say "the tprop" I have no idea what you are referring to. The Beech 1900 is essentially single pilot, and the C models you could, so which FO is ballast again? The Saab has a high workload, so does the Q-400 as I understand it, many other pilots have expressed their workloads on other jets that were higher than tprops. The reason people failed at XJ was because those pilots chose not to take the upgrade seriously, or were not ready; they were not destined to failure because of the equipment they flew prior.| We have an FMS that does use GPS, I keep my low en routes out even though we are using the FMS.

 

[Socal321]

Joe, you need to chill out. I think you took what I wrote out of context. I should have said that at xj the normal progression is from FO to Saab CA if you want the quick upgrade. If you're coming from the CRJ it's going to be harder. The original point that you made was that these people are failing because they were 250 hour pilots. It could also be because some of them are coming from the CRJ. That is why I said it's a recipe for failure. Now, you made it, we know you're the best pilot out there not trying to bruise your ego...