250 FO's

A300Capt said:
No, I would rather have a complete inexperienced green horn idiot sitting next to me!:sarcasm::p

However, now that you mentioned it, define what you mean by "experienced". I've had 10,000hr f/o's who seem to be flying their first hour in aviation 10,000 times over and over never learning or improving. I've had 2,000hr f/o's fly better than a lot of Captains I know. A lot of it is attitude, pride in a job well done and natural ability. Those three things you really can't teach.

I've flown with high time f/o's that I wouldn't let drive my car around the parking lot. I've flown with new hire f/o's that were incredibly sharp, made great judgement calls and flew the airplane like they've been doing it all their life and were a joy to fly with. I've also flown with superb high time f/o's who should be Captains if not for their seniority number and some very questionable low time pilots. Point being....time in a logbook is not the hallmark of an "experienced" (ie..great) pilot.

I assume by "experienced" pilot you mean one that is very good at what they do and they've been doing it a long time. In that case and in a perfect world I would, and I'm sure the flying public would, prefer to have an "experienced" f/o in the seat.
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In my (much more limited) experience I'd have to agree. While the only low time f/o I've flown with (650 hours on DOH) is myself I would say there are many attributes that play a much bigger role than numbers in a logbook.

As far as stick and rudder skills go I've flown with a few extremely experienced captains who scare me every time on landing. But stick and rudder isn't even close to the most important part of being a good pilot.

But from an f/o's point of view, I haven't found much of a relationship between experience and abilities of a captain. I think that comes down a lot more to attitude, temperment, and natural ability.

I've flown with a brand new captain who wanted to micromanage EVERYTHING. As we were taxiing out in Atlanta he would tell me things like "ok, this is where you contact ground". At that point in time every flight I had with the company went into or out of Atlanta.

I've flown with an experienced captain who yelled at me for asking if her left wingtip was clear when we were taxiing into a tight spot. She said "Of course it is...do you think I'd be taxiing if it wasn't?" Hooray for CRM.

I've flown with younger captains who look to the f/o as a valuable part of the team and looks for input on any major decision with a simple "how's that sound to you?" Or "Do you have any ideas?"

But then I've flown with an old guy who basically wanted me to make his decisions for him.

While I haven't been a captain and haven't experienced flying with an 250 hour right seat warmer, I think what I'm pointing out is that experience isn't everything. I would rather fly with someone who has a good mixture of experience and a level head.
 
Matt13C said:
If training is through and complete shouldnt a 250 hr FO be able to handle the basics of the job?
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The basics? Certainly. I'm walking proof that you can teach a monkey how to fly a CRJ and run checklists. That's the easy part. The difficult and most important part is communication and decision making. Which, in my opinion, can be obtained form other experiences outside of aviation.
 
OldTownPilot said:
And you think the company really cares about turning out quality pilots like the military does? All their training program does is check a bunch of part 121 boxes. If the company had their way all the FO training would be is three bounces in the sim, and telling all the pilots to read the FOM, and all the other books, and that IOE starts in a week.


A skipper at the old mans commuter airline once said "I've never met an FO worth his weight in fuel". Of course this was flying a turboprop that could be flown single pilot part 91, but the past couple of years were probably the closest that the statement should ever get to being true. I cant imagine the usefulness of an FO that has 190TT out of a part 141 program that has had his hand held the entire time, just taught enough to pass the ride, and probably does not have any "real" PIC time. They were always getting answers from dispatch departments on go/no go decisions, and telling them where to fly.
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I would hope the company cares about the quality of their plots. But I guess that is just my ignorance on the matter shining through.
 
Sure they want enough quality so that airplane don't crash and kill people, but that's what insurance is for. Other than that, all they care about is that they have two (hopefully) warm bodies up front so that they don't have to cancel the flight. And even that might be debated in a few situations.
 
Like people have said I think it depenmds on the person and situation. I'm at 250 hours right now with a temp Multi-Commercial ticket in my flight bag. I've been paying my own way for flight school and as I waited through the first hiring boom I missed my chance at "flying a Jet" and "getting there first with ATP". Its been hard to wait almost 3 years now working slowly on my ratings but in the end it has been a better choice. If I would have made the jump 1 1/2 ago I would most likley be furloughed right now. With thayt said if I had the opportunity to be an FO at a regional carrier right now I would take it. Not because I think I'm entitled to it and not because I deserve an upgrade. I would take it because it's what I set out to achive to start my career.
 
NOGUFFCHET said:
ive gotten into a good little debate in another section and i thought i would move the talk here...

simple topic: is it important to have an experienced FO in a transport airliner? so many times i have heard of guys getting in the right seat to an RJ with the temporary commercial in hand. I dont really think that it is right for ethical and occupational reasons, not to mention saftey, but poeple have raised good points countering my opinions.

*** note: if I had had the opportunity to jump to the FO with a fresh commercial, (had that been my intended route in aviation) i would have jumped at the chance.:rawk:
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Yes you can train a monkey to fly an RJ and have them proficient by the 100 hour mark without any prior flying experience because they flying that you do is completely different than bug smashing down low. You can even fly an RJ single pilot, you just need the other guy for an emergency. The tprops might be different but that's not rocket science either. The point is, does a 250 hour pilot belong there? No.
 
To be fair that's why you're an FO, to learn. Otherwise you'd be a CA. If you're at the point, as an FO where you've seen everything, that is the time to upgrade.
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In my philosophy, learning is a byproduct of experience and Southernjets hired me not to learn but to perform a task. Many airlines "hire captains", people that have already have leadership characteristics, and professional traits that are consistent with their corporate culture. And some just want butts in seats that will do as told, right or wrong.

The passengers paid for safe travel from point-a to point-b and not necessarily for a factory-fresh FO to log some dual cross country! :)

If you're a professional, learning is continuous. Upgrading to captain doesn't mean you've shirked the responsibility to learn, it more or less means that you had the seniority to bid captain and passed the checkride.

Over-reliance on technology coupled with inexperience has proven to be a deadly combination time and time again.

The FO's not there to learn, he's there to perform. He's there to say "Umm, captain? If we go to FL410 as requested by ATC, we're not going to have sufficient buffett protection!" or stomp on the brakes, destroy a friendship and potentially make a trip to the chief pilot's office if he's wrong when the captain is taxiing across an active runway with an airplane on the roll. Or even to say, "Nope!" when the crew is dead tired and crew scheduling wants to extend your duty day and the captain says, "umm, ok."

I've had my bacon saved and I've saved other's bacon! That's the job.
 
Socal321 said:
To be fair that's why you're an FO, to learn. Otherwise you'd be a CA. If you're at the point, as an FO where you've seen everything, that is the time to upgrade.
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I'm a captain with over 3000 PIC Multi-Engine Turbine. I learn something new every trip.
 
Socal321 said:
To be fair that's why you're an FO, to learn. Otherwise you'd be a CA. If you're at the point, as an FO where you've seen everything, that is the time to upgrade.
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An FO is not a student or an intern of some kind, they are a part of a crew. Doug summed it up well.

Alex.
 
jynxyjoe said:
We (XJ) had our first rounds of 250-500 hour wonders upgrade to captain recently. It was quite a mixed bag. The result?

Now all first year guys take their PC at the 10-11 month mark so Mesaba can fire them before they are off probation.
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VERY smart.

While I hate for people to get kicked to the curb, but if you can't maintain standards you shouldn't be out on the line. Good decision. What's the MEC say about it?
 
surreal1221 said:
VERY smart.

While I hate for people to get kicked to the curb, but if you can't maintain standards you shouldn't be out on the line. Good decision. What's the MEC say about it?
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Before I answer that I want to remark again it was a mixed bag. Some guys were great (the 250-500 hour wonders) and REALLY put the work in. Some guys were trying to pass off visual callouts for instrument callouts in the sim. I know attitudes were a huge problem: ego's and "well, I'll learn that later" crap. Some of those guys that upgraded finally (the whole bag, not just the 250-500 hour wonders) had more time than me (not in 121 environment) and will be excellent.

As I understand the union was completely satisfied with the companies new procedure. I think the lesson was; you want to tweak the nipples of a guy like me (new to the company, new to the captain's seat compared to the others) and some street captains that's fine, tweak the captains nipples who spent 9 years in the right seat on the Saab and just upgraded, this pilot group will throw your a$$ to the wolves.

I'd almost like to spend 12 years at this company just to be that tight as a group.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Before I answer that I want to remark again it was a mixed bag. Some guys were great (the 250-500 hour wonders) and REALLY put the work in. Some guys were trying to pass off visual callouts for instrument callouts in the sim. I know attitudes were a huge problem: ego's and "well, I'll learn that later" crap. Some of those guys that upgraded finally (the whole bag, not just the 250-500 hour wonders) had more time than me (not in 121 environment) and will be excellent.

As I understand the union was completely satisfied with the companies new procedure. I think the lesson was; you want to tweak the nipples of a guy like me (new to the company, new to the captain's seat compared to the others) and some street captains that's fine, tweak the captains nipples who spent 9 years in the right seat on the Saab and just upgraded, this pilot group will throw your a$$ to the wolves.

I'd almost like to spend 12 years at this company just to be that tight as a group.
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As I understand it, at XJ when you upgrade you got to the saab even if you're on the RJ. That's a real recipe for failure no matter how much time you have because of complacency. As I understand it from a friend of mine who flys the CRJ7/9, the FO is basically ballast because the CRJ operates itself. The tprop on the other hand is hands on plus you actually have to know where you're at the whole time with the jeps charts out! Imagine that!!! Or do you guys have gps?
 
Socal321 said:
As I understand it, at XJ when you upgrade you got to the saab even if you're on the RJ. That's a real recipe for failure no matter how much time you have. As I understand it from a friend of mine who flys the CRJ7/9, the FO is basically ballast because the CRJ operates itself. The tprop on the other hand is hands on plus you actually have to know where you're at the whole time with the jeps charts out! Imagine that!!! Or do you guys have gps?
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It sounds like you are trying to say that you are restricted to upgrade to the saab. That isn't true. If that is what you are saying you understand it wrong and I've read other useless "information" from various other forums all from people who heard something they didn't understand at the interview. Couldn't care less what your friend says or thinks he knows.

After all your walk and talk bout pulling out the charts, yeah we have the RNAV addon. It is mel'able of course and sometimes we pull out those jep charts, or what my fo's sometimes call them when I have mine out, "sectionals".

FO on a CRJ is not ballast. The crew on a Saab have a lot more work to do than the CRJ crew and it keeps you occupied. That is some of the reason I have a real hard time imagining myself giving turboprop life up.

I know you had only one question up there, but so much of what you said needed to be commented on I had to throw a few more paragraphs in there. I cannot hear your tone on this post, but I'd be careful about being so flippant about CRJ FO's, many of them upgraded just fine into the Saab and make great captains. They just had to work harder during training.
 
Socal321 said:
As I understand it, at XJ when you upgrade you got to the saab even if you're on the RJ. That's a real recipe for failure no matter how much time you have because of complacency. As I understand it from a friend of mine who flys the CRJ7/9, the FO is basically ballast because the CRJ operates itself. The tprop on the other hand is hands on plus you actually have to know where you're at the whole time with the jeps charts out! Imagine that!!! Or do you guys have gps?
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Also, I would point out we've had quite a few Saab FO's upgrade to CRJ 900 captains (I'd be willing to bet close to 40% of our RJ captains were Saab FO's). Which further confuses me why you'd say something like you did unless you are completely clueless on how airline seniority lists work. Perhaps you'd care to explain.
 
Most people would upgrade to the Saab, perhaps, just because they could hold Saab CA before they could hold jet CA. But many also might wait until their seniority could hold CRJ CA, too so they could stay in same base, have better pay, etc.

Going from a real senior FO to a real junior CA is a shock to the system, especially when it may take 6 months or longer to get off reserve.
 
LOGS said:
Another issue I always thought of was what kind of captains does that make. Straight from flight school to right seat then left seat with what 50 hours pic? Instructing isn't just for time building but to also grow into a good pilot. I always thought a license doesn't say ur a qualified pilot but that ur now qualified to learn the rest on your own.
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I could not agree more. I've learned so much in the first 100 hours of dual given. I always wondered what airline would hire a 141 commercial pilot with only 200 hours TT. I don't even know flight schools who will hire a 200 hour flight instructor. We have enough trouble with 250 hour CFI's (i being one of them, but hey, you learn as you go). If i had not gotten my ratings through my flight school, i doubt i would of gotten hired. The last CFI my school hired who did not do his ratings with us had over 1000 hours TT.

Now if I could get a job as an FO right now i would take it! It's been slow in the CFI business. I made $199.91 for my last paycheck and we get paid monthly.
 
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