200 knots below Class B and NY airspace

[Bandit_Driver]

I've been seeing this commonly since being based in NY. ATC assigns you a speed of 250, then takes you out of the class B,they don't tell you, you are exiting the class B either. If you slow, you are going to get bitched at about separation. The company has put in our guide a warning about this at a few airports where they are seeing a problem...

Is there some exemption we don't know about or is NY just special

 

[DE727UPS]

I think it's ATC doing what they need to do to efficiently separate and move traffic. I think if you queried them they would say "huh"? And I'm not knocking ATC at all.

 

[milleR]

@NovemberEcho

 

[NovemberEcho]

Don’t slow unless told when coming to a NY airport. (And if you do tell us)

The B was designed before the current traffic flow and was never modified to take changing approaches etc into account (thanks AOPA!). I know what the FAR says, but the only way to make things work as well as it does here means that one gets ignored. We won’t tell on you.

 

[Adler]

I've been seeing this commonly since being based in NY. ATC assigns you a speed of 250, then takes you out of the class B,they don't tell you, you are exiting the class B either. If you slow, you are going to get bitched at about separation. The company has put in our guide a warning about this at a few airports where they are seeing a problem...

Is there some exemption we don't know about or is NY just special

Don’t slow unless told when coming to a NY airport. (And if you do tell us)

The B was designed before the current traffic flow and was never modified to take changing approaches etc into account (thanks AOPA!). I know what the FAR says, but the only way to make things work as well as it does here means that one gets ignored. We won’t tell on you.

So...yet again...a case of DBAA.

 

[NovemberEcho]

So...yet again...a case of DBAA.

?

 

[Beefy McGee]

Don’t slow unless told when coming to a NY airport. (And if you do tell us)

The B was designed before the current traffic flow and was never modified to take changing approaches etc into account (thanks AOPA!). I know what the FAR says, but the only way to make things work as well as it does here means that one gets ignored. We won’t tell on you.

You may not tell on us. However, the guys at LGA that route us under the B heading in to HPN sure will if we don’t slow to 200. Seen it personally.

So we slow but (usually) tell the B controllers we are doing it as we duck under the B airspace and very rarely do they tell us to keep the speed up at 250.

 

[Beefy McGee]

I've been seeing this commonly since being based in NY. ATC assigns you a speed of 250, then takes you out of the class B,they don't tell you, you are exiting the class B either. If you slow, you are going to get bitched at about separation. The company has put in our guide a warning about this at a few airports where they are seeing a problem...

Is there some exemption we don't know about or is NY just special

It is your responsibility to know where the B shelf areas start and stop. Not just the controller to tell you. I recommend you pull those up on your iPad maps if you have it and monitor it. I usually make sure one of us is checking that map view at key points of the flight until it no longer matters, i.e. slowed and commencing the approach to whatever is under the B.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Don’t slow unless told when coming to a NY airport. (And if you do tell us)

I'm ignoring the second paragraph. It doesn't exist.

@Bandit_Driver yes slow, and as the controller above said, just tell them you're slowing below the B. No biggy.

 

[z987k]

Don’t slow unless told when coming to a NY airport. (And if you do tell us)

The B was designed before the current traffic flow and was never modified to take changing approaches etc into account (thanks AOPA!). I know what the FAR says, but the only way to make things work as well as it does here means that one gets ignored. We won’t tell on you.

But the computers do. Yours and ours.
If you want more that 200 below B, well... no. Get the airspace changed.

 

[NovemberEcho]

But the computers do. Yours and ours.
If you want more that 200 below B, well... no. Get the airspace changed.

We’ve been trying for over a decade. It’s mostly pilot groups who fight it.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I've been seeing this commonly since being based in NY. ATC assigns you a speed of 250, then takes you out of the class B,they don't tell you, you are exiting the class B either. If you slow, you are going to get bitched at about separation. The company has put in our guide a warning about this at a few airports where they are seeing a problem...

Is there some exemption we don't know about or is NY just special

Meh, as long as you're following legal speeds, and not assigned anything, fly what you want/need in the proximity of airports. It was stormy (as in N'easter stormy) the other day at TEB and some controller got her panties in a twist that I slowed down during mod-severe turbulence while being vectored to the LOC. "Hey, if you want me at a certain speed, say so - and just by the way, don't vector me through heavy precip, 'cause, you know, it's probably going to be bumpy as F." In fairness, it would have been gentlemanly of me to have announced my slowing, but a. I was getting my teeth knocked out of me noggin, and b. the frequency was very congested.

As an aside, can @NovemberEcho please appeal to TEB tower to edit their SPECIs?? When the Wx is so squirrely that the SPECI goes from X to F inside of 15 minutes, I'm reasonably certain we don't need to hear about the noise abatement procedure and the birds... EVERY SINGLE TIME it updates!!! (hint: winds, VIS, clouds, altimeter setting... STOP)

 

[NovemberEcho]

As an aside, can @NovemberEcho please appeal to TEB tower to edit their SPECIs?? When the Wx is so squirrely that the METAR goes from X to F inside of 15 minutes, I'm reasonably certain we don't need to hear about the noise abatement procedure and the birds... EVERY SINGLE TIME it updates!!!

That’s your penance for slowing without advising

 

[Deleted member 27505]

That’s your penance for slowing without advising

Ugh!
Who IS she? Please offer her my compliments... Honestly, she was doing Yeoman's work pushing tin in trying conditions... I wasn't terse or anything, and I didn't talk back. I just slowed down. It's just that when you're sitting in your seat - and then suddenly you're not - it can get a bit, er... focused in the cockpit.

 

[z987k]

We’ve been trying for over a decade. It’s mostly pilot groups who fight it.

Honestly you should just expect a slow to 200 when below B then. It'd be like if a controller got upset when we slowed to 250 at 10k when assigned 300 but then given a descent to 7000.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

I agree we should be slowing to 200 under the B. However I have seen ATC and been screamed at by ATC for slowing under the B.

The IMO is a joint responsibility. We should Know where it is but also I seem to remember they controller has an obligation to tell an aircraft they are being descended out of the B.

The rule needs to change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I agree we should be slowing to 200 under the B. However I have seen ATC and been screamed at by ATC for slowing under the B.

The IMO is a joint responsibility. We should Know where it is but also I seem to remember they controller has an obligation to tell an aircraft they are being descended out of the B.

The rule needs to change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No obligation when IFR and it absolutely needs to change. When I’m IFR single pilot the last thing I’ll be doing is attempting to find a VFR chart on my iPad. This won’t be able to come from pilots because the FAA will think we just wanna go fast. The push will have to come from ATC.

 

[Roger Roger]

Fix the airspace or fix the procedures, either way the aircraft on normal published approaches to the class B airports should be staying in Class B.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Fix the airspace or fix the procedures, either way the aircraft on normal published approaches to the class B airports should be staying in Class B.

EWR rwy 4R approaches all have a crossing altitude of 2800’ at the IAF’s. Class B shelf is 3000’. We usually assign 3000 though. It’s not really EWR/jfk/LGA where this issue arises. It’s the satellites that are under the B like TEB and HPN. Especially TEB.

 

[TallWeeds]

Descended below the B over Lake Michigan while headed to MDW. Controller very angrily says, "Compass 123, say airspeed!"

My forward thinking FO says, "You descended us below the bravo, 200 kts."

He responds back, "Ok, don't slow down anymore until I tell you."

I turned and asked the Southwest JSer how fast they flew below the B while headed to MDW.

"About 275."