2 rotary vs lycoming comparisons

My background is in building, modifying, and maintaining road race engines and for a short time and a lesser degree, drag race engines. How about yours?
Wow and you feel you are the authority on this topic based on that? I think my neighbors do the same thing (build engines that is).

I've rebuilt a car engine and worked on aircraft engines in a repair shop and I'm a pilot who's made it a point to understand the aircraft systems. I don't really think either of us has the background to say authoritatively wether it will work or not.

I will also point out that the car engine I rebuilt was a jaguar and a team of jaguar mechanics was the most successful team ever on the show junyard wars.:sarcasm:
 
Maybe a refresher will help. What exactly is the reason you are choosing an automotive engine over an aviation engine? What is the driving force behind this decision?
 
Rebuilding the engine in an old jaguar and building an engine for a racing scenario are two different things. You've said multiple times in this discussion that there are unknown quantities you are unaware of, and that's perfectly fine. I never claimed to be an authority, but I do feel comfortable with my ability to extrapolate my experience in performance engines to aircraft.

In reality, the discussion is a moot point. Spirit likes the Wankel, you refuse to fly behind one, and I don't have an experimental aircraft. Take it easy.
 
The advantage of the tried and true aviation piston powerplants is that they are just that- tried and true. What annoys me, is that when you buy a brand new Cirrus or Baron or whatever you are effectively getting a 1930's engine with 1950's fuel injection in a horribly underpowered application. 8:1 compression? Come on. Again, the advantage of this is that the engine is so understressed it can't hurt itself, but the downside is a lack of power, and even if you don't care about power and climb performance and going faster, it hurts efficiency.

Anyone who is mechanically inclined understands the difference between a road car, which may use 15% of its maximum rated power at normal cruise speeds (and is expected to last at least 100k miles) and an aviation powerplant (or a locomotive engine) that cruises at 50% to 70% of maximum rated power and is still expected to last 2000 hours. Race cars produce significantly more power than a road car, but the motor only has to last a few races, and even then, failure rates are pretty high when measured as a percentage.

However, an interesting argument to make here, would be to use a higher compression ratio in the cylinder to enhance efficiency, yet limit the throttle body from ever being wide open. Doing this, one could arrive at say a 360 cubic inch engine, running say 11:1 compression, that produced say 240HP at 25 inches manifold pressure, and yet could still give the same 120HP for cruise flight, at 50% power, in a more efficient manner, than the current engine (O-360 at 180HP) running 65% power to make the same cruise power setting. This would give better takeoff and climb performance, and allow more efficient operation.

In terms of piston development, I think we'll see aviation diesels burning Jet-A before we ever seen a modern Otto cycle engine. But, for an Otto cycle aviation engine, liquid cooling the jugs would make for far more consistent operating temps and get rid of the problem of shock cooling. A higher compression ratio would engine maximum power and improve efficiency. Modern, port fuel injection (or perhaps even direct injection) and digital ignition with the ability to advance spark would help power and efficiency.

I don't think a Wankel for aviation use is a bad idea, mainly because it is just that- a rotary engine that doesn't have the enourmous loads of the piston reversing direction thousands of times a minute, but I think the real milestone, if we ever get there, will be the availability of a turbine engine for under $50k.

For what it's worth on the price side of things, I think that to keep GA alive, something has to be done about the cost of certified aircraft and the parts to keep them flying.

Engines produce the lowest (best) brake specific fuel consumption (which is the quantity of fuel required to produce 1hp for 1 hour) at wide open throttle. Any throttling reduces the engine's efficiency.

A far better way of controlling the output from the engine would be to have no restriction on the intake (other than the air filter) and use the 'throttle' lever control the mixture. For low power required scenarios, the mixture would be well lean of stoichiometry, and as the 'throttle' is increased the mixture is enriched right up to stoichiometric (14.7 A/F) for max power. This is effectively what the Diesel cycle does. A system could be developed for compensating for air density with altitude.

Back to the original topic, I personally would have no issues flying a Wankel powered experimental. In addition, it seems to me that technological advancements don't happen over night, it takes people going out and testing new ideas. If one such advancement lowers the cost of flying and makes GA more accessible then I'm all for it.
 
Maybe a refresher will help. What exactly is the reason you are choosing an automotive engine over an aviation engine? What is the driving force behind this decision?

One of my big concerns besides safety and reliability is comfort. The mazda 13b provides the reliability I looked for and its safety record passed with flying colors, but I was warned that as long as the install is done right. So it came down to comfort, the rotary has a lot less vibration and noise. The power output is greater for a comparable size, it has greater fuel efficiency, and the last thing on my list of pros is that it is less expensive.
 
Rebuilding the engine in an old jaguar and building an engine for a racing scenario are two different things. You've said multiple times in this discussion that there are unknown quantities I'm unaware of, and that's perfectly fine. I never claimed to be an authority, but I do feel comfortable with my ability to extrapolate my experience in performance engines to aircraft.

In reality, the discussion is a moot point. Spirit likes the Wankel, you refuse to fly behind one, and I don't have an experimental aircraft. Take it easy.
Fixed it for you....

I seriously doubt you have any understanding of how the engineers made most of the decisions on any of the engines you have worked on. You probably aren't even aware of all the decision they had to make.
 
Engines produce the lowest (best) brake specific fuel consumption (which is the quantity of fuel required to produce 1hp for 1 hour) at wide open throttle. Any throttling reduces the engine's efficiency.

A far better way of controlling the output from the engine would be to have no restriction on the intake (other than the air filter) and use the 'throttle' lever control the mixture. For low power required scenarios, the mixture would be well lean of stoichiometry, and as the 'throttle' is increased the mixture is enriched right up to stoichiometric (14.7 A/F) for max power. This is effectively what the Diesel cycle does. A system could be developed for compensating for air density with altitude.

Back to the original topic, I personally would have no issues flying a Wankel powered experimental. In addition, it seems to me that technological advancements don't happen over night, it takes people going out and testing new ideas. If one such advancement lowers the cost of flying and makes GA more accessible then I'm all for it.


That is true, though in the case of these ancient aviation motors, I would venture to say that the decrease in efficiency caused by throttling the engine would be overcome by the increase in efficiency due to the higher compression ratio. Keep in mind, we're not really talking about full power efficiency, but rather cruise flight efficiency. This is also exactly why a diesel makes more sense. Not to mention the fact that an aircraft engines design scope is perfect for a diesel- low RPM, constant load, high torque.

BMW has completely solved the airflow effiency problem of throttling an Otto cycle engine by eliminating the throttle butterfly entirely, and varies the intake valve timing and lift to throttle the engine in the ValveTronic motors.

Back on topic, I too, would be comfortable flying a Wankel powered experiemental, and would be quite comfortable flying a Wankel powered twin.
 
One of my big concerns besides safety and reliability is comfort. The mazda 13b provides the reliability I looked for and its safety record passed with flying colors, but I was warned that as long as the install is done right. So it came down to comfort, the rotary has a lot less vibration and noise. The power output is greater for a comparable size, it has greater fuel efficiency, and the last thing on my list of pros is that it is less expensive.

Less noise? Those things sound like you are being attacked by bees in the cockpit.
 
Rotary engines are significantly less efficient and less powerful when compared to a V or straight engine. They sounds like ricers anyways.


wwwuuuuuhhhhhhhhh? A rotary engine is wwaaaayyyyy more efficent than a 4 stroke engine. The reason why it's not widely used today is because of it's ill-concevied complexity, and mostly low torque values. But the harder you spin em, the more power they'll make. If it wasn't for the GRU (gear reduction unit), I think you would see many more of them in airplanes.
 
Are all comparing the size of our junk? I always love competing in these! :) BEHOOOOOOLD.... :) :sarcasm:
 
Check out Dave Atkins website. http://www.atkinsrotary.com He been racing rotary engines up in the NW for years, can you say 10,000 RPM hole shot:D. He also has an RV6 with a rotary and he's been flying it for about 15 years.

Tracy Crook is another big name in flying wankels <cite>www.rotaryaviation.com</cite>. He has lots of info on his site, with years of experience to back it up.

Dave doesn't do aviation engines anymore, but I've been in his RV6 and thought it was very comfortable as far as noise, depending on the exhaust system they can sound unique from the ground though:D
 
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