1500 ATP Minimums for 121

Boris Badenov said:
Yeah, that checks.



Please God if you expect me to fly with you and not strangle you, do things other than "being an airline pilot". It's a job, you're a person. Presumably. Did you by any chance go to Riddle... :)
Click to expand...

Not sure what you're getting at with your comment, but it sounds to me like you're trying to bust my chops--not sure why, though?

I'm not opposed to all this BECAUSE I'm an F/O, I just don't agree with it; simple as that.

Yeah, I went to 'Riddle'--for my masters degree. What does that matter?

Maybe there are many pilots out there that really think being an airline pilot is friggin' hard--I don't. It's a challenge, at times, but it ain't "rocket science"! If you can fly an airplane well, and exercise good judgement, then making the transistion to airline ops is no different than most things new to people. It takes time, but we do it all the time--and it works. Besides, there's two highly trained pilots in the cockpit to share the workload.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think you need ATP mins to get hired at an airline AND do well. MAYBE if you were single-pilot ops, then yeah, but with two "joes" up front, let the status quo remain.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Most pilots are type A personalities, whatever that means. It doesn't matter about your personality type if you have no knowledge base to back it up. Both the captain and the first officer should be, in theory, experts.

When you have some guy who still has his temporary paper CPL, just off IOE he has an insufficient aviation experience base to make informed decisions. What happens is two fold:

1) Will a 250 hour FO question any decisions by the captain? -- Unless what the captain is doing is breaking an obvious limitation then I do not think so. The absolute best you can expect is that he or she will couch everything in a question 'Does this seem like a normal rate of ice accumulation?' rather than 'The ice is accumulating faster than our deice equipment can remove it. We should do something.', etc.

2) If your airline consistently hires low time pilots the captains expect inexperience and to a greater or lesser degree feel that they're on their own. At least with FOs they havent flown with consistently. When your airline is large and employs PBS you may not fly with the same person very often. This may create the impression 'This guy is a moron until he proves otherwise' when it should be 'This guy is a professional until he proves otherwise'.


The relative experience or inexperience level in aviation, for better or for worse, is measured in flight time so this is our metric. It isn't a perfect one, but it is what we work with.

Inexperienced FOs destroy CRM. This isn't the 60s, the co-pilot is more than a gear puller and flap handle operator. Most of these FARs were written back then though, so a CPL only requirement to be a co-pilot made sense if all your responsibilities entailed doing exactly what the captain god said, shutting your mouth and putting the gear up at positive rate and down at landing checks.
Click to expand...

SpiraMirabilis, what kind of experiences have you been in that the F/O's you've flown with have rubbed you the wrong way?! During training, all pilot employees are taught CRM. Crew's have to willing to apply the technique. If either one doesn't participate, then CRM fails. If captains don't even CONSIDER the F/O's input, then what's the point of CRM?

Regardless, ANY F/O NEW TO AN AIRLINE will pale in comparison to any captain that's been with the company and, over time, has been able to upgrade. F/O's with time on the job are an integral player in ensuring that the operation is and remains safe--I know I do, and so do many of my F/O co-workers, but you gotta learn the job first!!

We all know that every new-hire is a bit behind and has a learning curve that must be transgressed before they're on par, or near so, to any captain at their airline. But if the company has done their job in providing quality training, and the Line Check Airmen have done their job ensuring that new F/O's are ready, then what's the problem? Sure you're going to have strange scenarios that pop up from time-to-time--and you can't train for everything, but I've been with newly upgraded captains that sometimes get stumped and pull out the 'Flight Crew Manual' or have to call the company for assistance. Heck, even some senior captains I've flown with will do the same thing--it ain't the end of the world!!
 
JKJCKSN said:
Not sure what you're getting at with your comment, but it sounds to me like you're trying to bust my chops--not sure why, though?

I'm not opposed to all this BECAUSE I'm an F/O, I just don't agree with it; simple as that.

Yeah, I went to 'Riddle'--for my masters degree. What does that matter?

Maybe there are many pilots out there that really think being an airline pilot is friggin' hard--I don't. It's a challenge, at times, but it ain't "rocket science"! If you can fly an airplane well, and exercise good judgement, then making the transistion to airline ops is no different than most things new to people. It takes time, but we do it all the time--and it works. Besides, there's two highly trained pilots in the cockpit to share the workload.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think you need ATP mins to get hired at an airline AND do well. MAYBE if you were single-pilot ops, then yeah, but with two "joes" up front, let the status quo remain.
Click to expand...



There are plenty that have gotten hired at airlines at lower than ATP mins and have done well. The idea of this bill is to FORCE the regionals to be more critical of who they hire and set tighter qualifications. By simple qualifications, it will at least raise the quality of the applicant.

Please don't tell me you didnt learn anything between the time you had 500 hours to the time you had 1500 hours? Personally, I was a completely different pilot. Aviation isn't rocket science, but it isn't working the cash register at mcdonalds either. It's becoming very obvious you don't quite take your job seriously enough.

I don't understand your attitude toward this bill. It's one of the few steps forward (and against the ATA!) that we've had in a very long time.

The regionals try to cut cost by any means, and that means hiring the lowest time pilots possible that will accept the lowest wages possible "because it's a jet, dooood!" It's been overdue to cut those scum sucking thieves off.
 
RynoB said:
No need to sugar coat it like that. Tell us how you really feel :D
Click to expand...

Don't get me started, haha.

Regional management teams will pinch pennies, push flight crews, and cut corners all the way up until within a hair of killing a bunch of people. I have actually been very surprised there havent been more regional accidents with the management culture at them.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Don't get me started, haha.

Regional management teams will pinch pennies, push flight crews, and cut corners all the way up until within a hair of killing a bunch of people. I have actually been very surprised there havent been more regional accidents with the management culture at them.
Click to expand...
I hear ya. It's not just regional management. I'm starting to think that aviation is that way in general.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Don't get me started, haha.

Regional management teams will pinch pennies, push flight crews, and cut corners all the way up until within a hair of killing a bunch of people. I have actually been very surprised there havent been more regional accidents with the management culture at them.
Click to expand...

Nope they'll go past that and kill them. Then shrug. Then get more airplanes awarded to them for doing such a good job.
 
Clocks said:
I don't not support this. But it always makes me laugh when a new rule is proposed that wouldn't have prevented a single crash. How many 121 crashes have their been with pilots under 1500 hours? 2000 hours? 2500 hours?

Maybe the minimum should be 5000 hours to be a regional FO.
Click to expand...

WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY??? We have to do something NOOOOWWWWW!!! Planes are falling from the sky right and left... For the humanity, we MUST ACT NOW!!! MORE LEGISLATION that will surely fix all our problems! :sarcasm: (just in case someone couldn't really tell!)
 
mooneyguy said:
WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY??? We have to do something NOOOOWWWWW!!! Planes are falling from the sky right and left... For the humanity, we MUST ACT NOW!!! MORE LEGISLATION that will surely fix all our problems! :sarcasm: (just in case someone couldn't really tell!)
Click to expand...

Ok this is why some companies need adult supervision. Hopefully those in Congress do not hold these views. I am not a fan of regulation as a panacea to all ills, but there is a real need for reform. Perhaps if we got rid of a lot of the oversight and rules we have now, things could be cheaper and we could have the safety record of SE asia, or Africa. Hopefully this cynicism is in the minority and congress will act.
 
It's beyond belief how some here do not clearly understand the difference between training and experience, but then very intelligent people over the years with the money to fly sophisticated aircraft of all kind are now dead because they thought the same thing. Very nice. It is what it is.

At some point in the past the airlines shifted from a very aggressive "Get the best of the best" to a very aggressive "Find the lowest bidder legal to fill the seat". Before this happened the "minimums" of anything were irrelevant because no one got hired who did not exceed the minimums by a substantial margin. No one knew if the minimums were good enough because they were not used. Many of the criteria of the past are completely gone, out the window. The remaining FAA mins became the new goal. Just like price matching on ticket sales, once one airline drops the price everyone else must follow. A similar relationship occurred with the expense side, labor costs. Even if airline "A" wanted to maintain a higher standard they could not do it and compete if airline "B" was cutting labor costs. The expense side has to mirror the lowest airline since the revenue side does.

This was phenomena was coined as the "Race to the bottom". We finally hit bottom.

Can you imagine if instead of 4 years as an undergrad, 4 years of Med school, 5 years as a Gen Surg Resident, then becoming board certified there was a fast track "MED-University" that allowed you to become a surgeon in only 9 months! A TV commercial that proclaims "It would have taken years without MED-U; I went from the street to practicing surgery in only 9 months!" This could actually be done except (1) there would be quite a few patients die, (2) the AMA would stop it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEsgb-LFSvc&feature=related

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/AirlinePlacements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A
 
seaav8tor said:
It's beyond belief how some here do not clearly understand the difference between training and experience, but then very intelligent people over the years with the money to fly sophisticated aircraft of all kind are now dead because they thought the same thing. Very nice. It is what it is.

At some point in the past the airlines shifted from a very aggressive "Get the best of the best" to a very aggressive "Find the lowest bidder legal to fill the seat". Before this happened the "minimums" of anything were irrelevant because no one got hired who did not exceed the minimums by a substantial margin. No one knew if the minimums were good enough because they were not used. Many of the criteria of the past are completely gone, out the window. The remaining FAA mins became the new goal. Just like price matching on ticket sales, once one airline drops the price everyone else must follow. A similar relationship occurred with the expense side, labor costs. Even if airline "A" wanted to maintain a higher standard they could not do it and compete if airline "B" was cutting labor costs. The expense side has to mirror the lowest airline since the revenue side does.

This was phenomena was coined as the "Race to the bottom". We finally hit bottom.

Can you imagine if instead of 4 years as an undergrad, 4 years of Med school, 5 years as a Gen Surg Resident, then becoming board certified there was a fast track "MED-University" that allowed you to become a surgeon in only 9 months! A TV commercial that proclaims "It would have taken years without MED-U, I went from the street to practicing surgery in only 9 months!" This could actually be done except (1) there would be quite a few patients die, (2) the AMA would stop it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEsgb-LFSvc&feature=related

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/AirlinePlacements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A
Click to expand...
well said
 
I know my airline overlooked better qualified, more experienced applicants in favor of guys that went to the local fast track for-profit school that had a hiring agreement with us.
 
kellwolf said:
I don't think there will be a balls to the walls hiring process, but for a different reason. I don't think the next gen props will replace 50 seaters. I think the routes will simply go away. With Delta and NWA consolidating, there's a lot less need for 4 flights a day from SHV to ATL AND SHV to MEM or something similar. Also, you might see something like 4 flights a day from ERI to DTW cut back to 3 flights a day, but on bigger aircraft. Instead of a 50 seater, you see either a CRJ-700 or a -900, maybe even a (dare I even SAY it?) DC-9.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Frequency of service is the lesson Southwest taught everyone, and the reason to have 6 daily RJ flights between a city pair instead of one 757. Pax want to travel on their timetable, not the airlines'.
 
TXaviator said:
so then, where do guys get time? no 121...no 135... CFI yeah, but I still argue that a fresh CFI is the blind leading the blind...

and theres CERTAINLY not enough pt 91 gigs around to keep all the young/new pilots employed...

ive been actively pursuing some job leads outside of aviation. about had enough sillyness. student loans have to be paid.
Click to expand...
I take a 4 day vaca and see what happens. 5 pages already. Two posts in and I have to respond.

Clearly you are being pragmatic. Like you I have been applying to non-av positions. I just want to say this; woe that the noble position of flight instructor has sunk even lower to being hardly a stepping stone to some glorious and higher calling.

Well, and this; a new CFIbut with 2000 hours and 47 types (not type ratings) under his belt would not be "the blind leading the blind". I'm just saying. There are some of us out there.
 
JKJCKSN said:
Not sure what you're getting at with your comment, but it sounds to me like you're trying to bust my chops--not sure why, though?

I'm not opposed to all this BECAUSE I'm an F/O, I just don't agree with it; simple as that.

Yeah, I went to 'Riddle'--for my masters degree. What does that matter?

Maybe there are many pilots out there that really think being an airline pilot is friggin' hard--I don't. It's a challenge, at times, but it ain't "rocket science"! If you can fly an airplane well, and exercise good judgement, then making the transistion to airline ops is no different than most things new to people. It takes time, but we do it all the time--and it works. Besides, there's two highly trained pilots in the cockpit to share the workload.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think you need ATP mins to get hired at an airline AND do well. MAYBE if you were single-pilot ops, then yeah, but with two "joes" up front, let the status quo remain.
Click to expand...
2 Joes in 1 cockpit do not a flight crew make.

Beyond the "xxxEchoRomeo" there were always clues that a RiddleRat was in the vicinity. Whatever their level of colliegate achievement.

Knowing how to exercise PIC responsibility is not hard. After a time--when finally comprehending what PIC really means--it is quite easy. The thing is while none of flying is hard, there is a lot to know and to do, often simultaneously. So no commercially rated pilot should pat himself on the back for acting PIC because at the basic level it is expected of one.

It is not my intent to bust your chops but my experience with ER grads, MS inclusive, is they think like USAF pilots; their **** don't stink. And I know of what I speak, I have flown with many USAF pilots including several DFC veterans in formation--with them it's always the other guy who screwed up.

My experience with ER grads include: a 22 yr old Chief pilot at a 141 school who was just dying to get on with the majors (everyone he met was a network opportunity); a 100 hr dual given CFI who proudly proclaimed he was "too good to be a flight instructor ever again"; one of my CFIs who got lost (under the hood within 20 nm of a Class C) when he turned off the GPS to show me a good lesson in SA. And, the creme a la creme, the ER CFI out of Prescott who flies up to KPGA and thinks she has right of way over all aircraft, all the time, no matter her position. I hope she's reading this.

I really don't want to be derogatory of ER but my experience has been when an ER grad announces, Watch out! I don't know what line they feed y'all but hey, guess what, you might know the 3rd hyd system on the 767 better but it aint helping what you're doing right now in the traffic flow.

BTW: Congratulations on achieving your Masters. I mean it. Well done.
 
I'm all for the 1500 for the ATP, but an age limit? I agree with people earlier who said it should be 21. 30? Why? Don't agree with that, but can't complain about the mins. And an ATP to be an F/O in say a B1900? Can't say I agree with that either...at all. If I read right, I believe thats what people are getting at, holding an ATP to occupy the right seat at a regional. Thats funny.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top