141 versus 61

Personally i hate 141. Our school went 141 this last summer. Hood time on the 3rd lesson?!?!?!? Ridiculous. I think I'm bitter because i had to transfer all my 61 students to 141. I'm still working out the kinks.

There is no "fun" flying in 141. Or is should say it does not count towards the 190 hours TT. I rented planes with other students and took cross countries all over. I flew to St. Paul, Oshkosh, Pheonix, along with some shorter flights that were not part of the 141 syllabus. Not only do you not need an instructor, you can split the rental cost with a friend and both log the hours if the pilot flying is under the hood.

I remember my commercial time building. Way WAY fun! i would just rent the plane for 4 hours every day and go fly at least 50 miles away to make it a cross country and then just putt around in the mountains looking for Elk and try to hit updrafts.

I know talking to my boss, he has a hard enough time hiring a 300 hour CFI let alone one who got their commercial in 190 hours. The only way he will hire a low time CFI is if he has trained them him self through our school. Case in point. We just hired a new CFI (albeit a Chief pilot). One applicant had over 1500 hours, the other had over 3000 hours. We hired the one with 3000 plus hours, airline experience, Charter experience, and who had worked at K-State for 12 years.

Lastly 190 tt does not include GROUND instruction witch is required. So what you can get your PPL in 35 hours you sill need 35 hours of ground to go with that! part 61 there is no required amount of ground training. Part 61 you can get your PPL in 40 and probably 10-15 hours of ground.

Money wise i think you'll spend close to the same. I think you will have more fun 61. It's more laid back. Some times i feel like 141 is a revolving door for a pilot farm. I think 61 training is less stressful because you don't have to get everything done for a specific flight lesson.

Good Luck!

-Matt
 
Sorry to double post. You can join a non profit flying club to build time after your private to build the 50 hr xcountry pic. Ours rents a C172 (One IFR certified and one VFR) for $50 an hour wet (with fuel).

I'm taking one with a buddy to Oshkosh next summer. With a hood we are both loggin the time, and it works out to $25 bucks an hour per person. I'm looking to logg 20 hours x-country pic for $500 bucks!!!

Coolest part. I don't have to pay for gas out of pocket and worry about being reimbursed. The club keeps a credit card in the plane to buy gas with. All included in the rental cost
 
Jshutt64 said:
Scroll down until you get to their program prices. it does state that you need only 10 hours of dual for the commercial ride.
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I did that, and sent an inquiry to ask how they do that. You should too.
I'm just curious if it is real, or just another come-on.

As you can tell, there are many versions of "141" here on this forum, and around the country. No one here can give you a definitive answer, because there are so many variables. I suggest you read the FAR 141 indexes. They outline the specific hours dual and solo and all the XC requirements etc.

And then, you have to ask each school exactly how their approved program compares with the 141 requirements. A school can get a special approval for a deviation from the reg.

Next, not all schools have Examining Authority, as a matter of fact, most don't.

What that means is: A school with Examining Authority does the Final Stage Check as the actual Certification ride. So the last lesson in the program is the 35th hour and completes the course and gets the certificate all in one. That is the only way that a person can become Commercial certified, is if he/she passes every lesson with no repeats (extra hours).
That's how 35+35+120=190.

However, most schools don't have this Authority, so even if you ace every lesson, you still have to pay for and take a checkride at the end of each course, which is still a bunch of bucks and that is not shown on any 141 advertising that I have ever seen. ...and most students don't do the private and instrument in 35 hours, it is always to proficiency, so the only consideration om 141 vs. 61 for PP an IR is the hourly cost. Don't forget 141 requires the 35 hours of ground also.

The saving can come with a 141 program for commercial, since you can certainly do the Commercial in 120 hours, but factor in the 55 dual which is really excessive (compared to 61), but it will take more than 10, and that all comes down to the prices of dual and solo etc.

Bottom line: Do the private Part 61. By that time, you will have become knowledgeable about these various factors and make your own decision then. You don't have to decide now. Do your research.
 
Back to the original question.

Someone may have done their private 10 years ago and flew occasionally for fun and now have a few hundred hours total time. Doing the CSEL part 61 would obviously benefit this person since they already have the TT requirements met.

If this same person with a few hundred hours decided to do his CSEL part 141, he'd still have to complete the full 120 hour CSEL course.

Looking at this situation, you can see how part 61 would fit this guys situation much better.

Unless you're using your GI bill, I recommend doing the CSEL part 61 because the cost is going to be about the same if you find yourself a safety pilot to go build time with, and build up that x-c time.

Part 61: 250 hours TT with all of that simulated instrument and x-c time
Part 141:190 hours TT with much less x-c and sim. inst.

They'll both cost about the same when you factor in the 55 hours dual.
 
flyboywbl said:
Sorry to double post. You can join a non profit flying club to build time after your private to build the 50 hr xcountry pic. Ours rents a C172 (One IFR certified and one VFR) for $50 an hour wet (with fuel).

I'm taking one with a buddy to Oshkosh next summer. With a hood we are both loggin the time, and it works out to $25 bucks an hour per person. I'm looking to logg 20 hours x-country pic for $500 bucks!!!

Coolest part. I don't have to pay for gas out of pocket and worry about being reimbursed. The club keeps a credit card in the plane to buy gas with. All included in the rental cost
Click to expand...

Im doing almost the same exact thing, currently have my ppl and working on my instrument.
If you can find one and have the luck of getting in(mine only lets a certain number in) then that is the best bet I feel.
Just my .02
 
nosehair said:
I did that, and sent an inquiry to ask how they do that. You should too.
I'm just curious if it is real, or just another come-on.

As you can tell, there are many versions of "141" here on this forum, and around the country. No one here can give you a definitive answer, because there are so many variables. I suggest you read the FAR 141 indexes. They outline the specific hours dual and solo and all the XC requirements etc.

And then, you have to ask each school exactly how their approved program compares with the 141 requirements. A school can get a special approval for a deviation from the reg.

Next, not all schools have Examining Authority, as a matter of fact, most don't.

What that means is: A school with Examining Authority does the Final Stage Check as the actual Certification ride. So the last lesson in the program is the 35th hour and completes the course and gets the certificate all in one. That is the only way that a person can become Commercial certified, is if he/she passes every lesson with no repeats (extra hours).
That's how 35+35+120=190.

However, most schools don't have this Authority, so even if you ace every lesson, you still have to pay for and take a checkride at the end of each course, which is still a bunch of bucks and that is not shown on any 141 advertising that I have ever seen. ...and most students don't do the private and instrument in 35 hours, it is always to proficiency, so the only consideration om 141 vs. 61 for PP an IR is the hourly cost. Don't forget 141 requires the 35 hours of ground also.

The saving can come with a 141 program for commercial, since you can certainly do the Commercial in 120 hours, but factor in the 55 dual which is really excessive (compared to 61), but it will take more than 10, and that all comes down to the prices of dual and solo etc.

Bottom line: Do the private Part 61. By that time, you will have become knowledgeable about these various factors and make your own decision then. You don't have to decide now. Do your research.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your insight. I've already done my private part 61, but was considering switching to this school as the 152's here are $78 as opposed to $90 at my old operation.

I'll call them today and ask them about their 141 CSEL requirements. :)
 
Jshutt64 said:
Okay, I might be beating a dead horse, but here we go.


My question is...if the prices are roughly the same for instruction/rental, why bother doing 61 at 250 hours? Is there some sort of advantage? Is there something I'm missing? Am I right to think that it would be much more cost efficient to do 141?

Thanks. :)
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Personally I do not know any 141 operation that has given their students the same bang for a part 61 operator's buck.


Douglas said:
There seems to be a lot of 141 hate.
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It's not that I'm hateful of 141 from my statement above, but although there are reduced flight time advantages to a 141 school/program, I've never actually seen that save money when you look at the cost of all the "groundschool" the student needs to go through.

flyboywbl said:
Personally i hate 141. Our school went 141 this last summer. Hood time on the 3rd lesson?!?!?!? Ridiculous. I think I'm bitter because i had to transfer all my 61 students to 141. I'm still working out the kinks.

There is no "fun" flying in 141.
Click to expand...

This is probobaly where I am in most agreement with a part 61 school. While you can work a 141 syllabus to the student's advantage, one of the kry points in the FOI is flexibility and making the lesson suit the student.

I fund it much easier to accomodate this treaching mentality in the 61 environment than I have in a 141 place.

YMMV.
 
Jshutt64 said:
Unfortunately nothing even close to that exists in Los Angeles. :(
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That was 10 years ago. Nothing ever gets cheaper in aviation. A lot of the old timers I know talk about the $5 cub rentals they flew.

I think nearly everyone is better off part 61. Less structure is good, you can tailor to the needs of the student.

It is almost certainly cheaper.

My instrument experience was a good example - my flying was good, so at about 7 hours in, we mostly used the training for checkouts in other planes (under the hood of course). I also tried to set up cross countries to someplace fun so my CFI could take his girlfriend overnight. We tried to do as much as possible in actual weather. You learn more this way - being at unfamiliar airports, and needing to make decisions. Much more in my case than shooting the same 3 approaches at the airport your DPE is most likely to go to. Did that checkride IMC/marginal VFR with moderate turbulence and felt like I actually knew what I was doing.

To be honest, I think I used those stupid jepp shades 3 times getting my instrument ticket. Switching back and forth between steam gauges and glass did a lot to help my scan too. I don't think you would get that 141 with a standardized fleet of trainers.
 
moxiepilot said:
It's not that I'm hateful of 141 from my statement above, but although there are reduced flight time advantages to a 141 school/program, I've never actually seen that save money when you look at the cost of all the "groundschool" the student needs to go through.
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true true
 
There is NO reason you can't make your 141 training fun. Just make your cross country stuff to fun places like we do. We make sure we get all the folks who are at XC phase and we all caravan somewhere to eat, all the while knocking out the dual XC time and having fun. I had a guy do a solo XC, his first, to an airport next to a golf course he wanted to play. He played, then came home, he had a blast. And hood time early teaches students the nuances of the instruments and how they lag and move, not the devil to have it on the third lesson. I sell the 141 program as a more structured environment and EVERY doctor I have had has chosen this way. All the kids want 61 . Hey, it's your training, I let you choose which way you want to go.
 
If you want an early start on dealing with 'dispatch' and assorted other bs, go 141. If you want to commit the cardinal sins of having fun and learning, go 61.
 
I don't get this. Our 141 program is basically the exact training as what I do 61 except with a ton of ground added. Now there IS a huge difference in the way schools conduct 141. For example, there is an outfit out of LEX that is 141 that will suck the life out of you and use their 141 to get as much money as possible out of you and fail you on your stage checks for the sole purpose of having you spend more money. Now these outfits are the devil and yes, there will be no fun had at these places. Funny, I'm pretty sure they gave the afore mentioned outfit CFI of the year...what a joke.
 
I've never been in a 141 program. I came up through and now teach in Pt 61. The most fun I've had in aviation so far was after I got my Private and started renting the airplane to build time and flying all over the Northwest by myself. Between all the good times and good scares, I never learned more about flying at any time with an instructor as I did by myself on those flights getting myself out of the trouble I found.

I don't want it to sound like I was always doing things I shouldn't, but there was always something new to teach yourself when you are truly the PIC without another pilot in the plane to give you ideas or suggestions and you are doing what YOU want to do.

I think either way you go learning is a two way relationship. The instructor has to be willing to convey their knowledge and make sure they are creating a safe pilot. The student has to want to learn everything they can and be willing to become a safe pilot. I've seen both as an Instructor and a student. I've had crappy instructors and crappy students.

Pick a school and instructor that fit your personality and goals. Then have fun and be willing to learn. If you just want the ratings as fast as you can get them and don't care if you learn you're cheating yourself. I never took any of my checkrides at the minimum amount of time required. I took them when my instructor thought I was ready and when I thought I was ready. Then I flew with an instructor some more after I got the ratings because I wanted to dig every scrap of information out of their brains while I could. Have fun, learn a lot and make the most of your training.

Holy crap that's a long post for me.
 
Goldmember said:
I don't get this. Our 141 program is basically the exact training as what I do 61 except with a ton of ground added. Now there IS a huge difference in the way schools conduct 141. For example, there is an outfit out of LEX that is 141 that will suck the life out of you and use their 141 to get as much money as possible out of you and fail you on your stage checks for the sole purpose of having you spend more money. Now these outfits are the devil and yes, there will be no fun had at these places. Funny, I'm pretty sure they gave the afore mentioned outfit CFI of the year...what a joke.
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What are your policies on aircraft rental? I flew all over the eastern US building time for my commercial license. Alone. At night. Even in IMC! Sometimes I kept the plane out for a week. As long as I flew a couple of hours a day, that was fine.

I've seen 141s with a relatively laid back atmosphere and 141s with uniforms and crosswind limitations and soforth. But I've yet to see one where you can actually go use an airplane for its intended purpose (travel) without enough hoop-jumping to kill the fun.
 
Boris Badenov said:
What are your policies on aircraft rental? I flew all over the eastern US building time for my commercial license. Alone. At night. Even in IMC! Sometimes I kept the plane out for a week. As long as I flew a couple of hours a day, that was fine.

I've seen 141s with a relatively laid back atmosphere and 141s with uniforms and crosswind limitations and soforth. But I've yet to see one where you can actually go use an airplane for its intended purpose (travel) without enough hoop-jumping to kill the fun.
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That isn't 141, that is relative to the number of students to the resources available.

I think for VA benefits and such a flight school has to be 141, so you may see smaller flight schools that are 141 while a larger student base at another school may be 61.

I can't rent an airplane at my local flying club for a weekend if I plan on flying IMC (ATP, multiple types, 4000+ hours, etc). You can only fly IMC locally and all cross countries have basic VFR wx mins, higher at night.

I could PU any airplane at UND as an instructor under any WX conditions. I took the baron to Denver multiple times with students, took seminoles to Chicago. A couple of students took the baron to the east coast, etc and so on. None of it involved any hoop jumping, simply involved coordinating a reasonable time in advance, about a week, so the airplanes could be set aside from the schedule before people had a chance to schedule them.

Your training, the key word there being YOUR, is as fun or as boring as you make it. 141 offers a mandatory (via the FAA) more structured program and lessened flight hours to earn certificate(s). This may allow for easier financing, it may not. 61 offers nothing more or less, save for requiring more flight hours. Keep in mind just because 141 makes your certificates available at lower hours, I know few people who have actually done it in less time and the 60 hour difference between 141 and 61 is a drop in the bucket.
 
400A said:
T Keep in mind just because 141 makes your certificates available at lower hours, I know few people who have actually done it in less time and the 60 hour difference between 141 and 61 is a drop in the bucket.
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You know, I never really understood this. While (in theory) getting a C-ASEL at 190 hours sounds great, from a practical standpoint, the opportunities you have to fly below 500 hours are quite limited.
 
Boris Badenov said:
But I've yet to see one where you can actually go use an airplane for its intended purpose (travel) without enough hoop-jumping to kill the fun.
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Swing by my shop and you will see the min hours posted on the wall! :)
I know what you are saying though, I was at one school that didn't allow anybody from outside of the program in the plane while renting.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
You know, I never really understood this. While (in theory) getting a C-ASEL at 190 hours sounds great, from a practical standpoint, the opportunities you have to fly below 500 hours are quite limited.
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I think that 60 hour difference is just a way of cutting out excessive "free time". Not that free time is a bad thing in any way, shape or form, but if you add up the time required (under part 61) for private, instrument and commercial it is less than 250 (excluding the blanket 250 hour TT requirement for your commercial). Even UND's program had about a 20 hour or so "gap" that you hade to make up before starting the final course (multi engine).
 
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