141 versus 61

Jshutt64

Jshutt64

Well-Known Member
Okay, I might be beating a dead horse, but here we go.

I'm looking to get my CSEL and subsequent CFI for as cheap as possible. As a 19 year old with broke parents and a desire not to be in debt, it's the only way. I know that you can get your CSEL at 190 hours when you do it the 141 route.

My question is...if the prices are roughly the same for instruction/rental, why bother doing 61 at 250 hours? Is there some sort of advantage? Is there something I'm missing? Am I right to think that it would be much more cost efficient to do 141?

Thanks. :)
 
Well even though 190 may be the minimum in a 141 school, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll get signed off with that amount and i am also strongly against the saying that 141 schools are "better."

Take two of my friends for example.

Friend A went to American Flyers to do his PPL where you can get signed off at 35hrs for the ride but he didn't get signed off until 120hrs AND he busted the first time because he didn't know how to do standard rate turns.

Friend B went to American Flyers as well didn't soloed until 50hrs and got his PPL somewhere around 90hrs. He busted his ride the first time as well because he couldn't track VORs.

I did mine Part 61, payed about 12,000 less than what they did and got my PPL at 50hrs. I am not against part 141 schools but for me, 61 was a better way for me to go and get my ratings.

I consider myself lucky due to the great instructors that i had. I tend to go with older guys in their 50s who have no desire to go to the airlines. This way i'm not just another opportunity for them to make their logbooks fat and couldn't careless if i learn or not. I am not saying all young instructors are like that but there are a quite a few out there....
 
The private and Instrument can be cheaper with only needing 35 hours each, but the commercial is 120 hours long. Out of those 120 hours you need 55 hours of dual which is expensive and 65 hours of solo time.
 
Also, once you start going for your CFI, 141 requires 25 hours dual whereas 61 requires none.
 
ryanmickG said:
The private and Instrument can be cheaper with only needing 35 hours each, but the commercial is 120 hours long. Out of those 120 hours you need 55 hours of dual which is expensive and 65 hours of solo time.
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You need 55 hours of dual for 141 commerical? Hrm, I might have been misled. Check this out:

http://www.lbflying.com/prices.html

Scroll down until you get to their program prices. First of all, I know they're inaccurate as they state the minimums (35 for PSEL and IR) and nobody gets done in the minimums. But, it does state that you need only 10 hours of dual for the commercial ride.
 
I'd pick and choose.

My PPL was at an FBO, part 61

Everything else was at college. MEL was 141, but all else was 61.

I'd say the most important thing is the quality of instruction, which isn't dictated by an FAR.

Pick and choose a course that's best for you. In this, or really any, economic climate dropping a sum that will net a college degree should do just that.

Otherwise, you are cheating yourself.
 
I bet the 250 hrs part 61 is a lot cheaper if you build hours in gliders and/or split time with a buddy after you get the IR (safety pilot time).
 
I initially took the 141 route and changed over to part 61 before I got my private and stuck with the same school all the way through my CFI. My PPL instructor got a job with Mesaba and disappeared before I was able to finish my private. I felt like I was swept under the rug and forgot about at the 141 school.

The regulations are more strict for 141 schools in that they have to have onstaff dispatchers, chief flight instructors, etc. I found that part 61 schools usually have less overhead which trickles down to a savings for the customer. I recommend you find a passionate flight instructor and are not afraid of trying multiple instructors until you find one you click well with.

In my case the cost savings at the 61 school made up for the 60 hour difference required for the commercial license.
 
ryanmickG said:
The private and Instrument can be cheaper with only needing 35 hours each, but the commercial is 120 hours long. Out of those 120 hours you need 55 hours of dual which is expensive and 65 hours of solo time.
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Exactly. Most people forget about that part.

Jshutt64 said:
You need 55 hours of dual for 141 commerical? Hrm, I might have been misled.
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Each 141 syllabus is different and is approved by the FAA on a case by case basis. If the FAA allows this in their syllabus then it is as advertised.
We ourselves would like this to happen someday for our Commercial Syllabus as most of our students find it cheaper to do commercial 61 (then continue to do CFI under 61).
While it is cheaper do private/instrument under 141.

There seems to be a lot of 141 hate.
141 or 61, the real difference is the instructors ability.
Besides the difference on paper, standardization between instructors is supposed to be a feature of 141.

There are many ways to get your certificates for less money.
-Fly often
-Fly the cheap planes
-Fly with a safety pilot

If you are looking for cheap I would think about these items first.
Shop around, find a good school and a good instructor and if you find those 141 or 61 it won't matter, if you use some cost saving techniques.
 
ryanmickG said:
The private and Instrument can be cheaper with only needing 35 hours each, but the commercial is 120 hours long. Out of those 120 hours you need 55 hours of dual which is expensive and 65 hours of solo time.
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Well it could be more expensive as you would have to possibly buy 50 more hours of flight time. So it would be pay and instructor 55 hours at ~$50/Hr or buy 50 more hours at ~$100/Hr.

Now that all depends on the 141 TCO and performance in private/instrument courses.
 
Maurus said:
Well it could be more expensive as you would have to possibly buy 50 more hours of flight time. So it would be pay and instructor 55 hours at ~$50/Hr or buy 50 more hours at ~$100/Hr.
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Part 141 airplanes usually cost more per hour. If you can save $25 per hour flying a 152 all over the place building part 61 cross country time, it will overcome the higher number of hours.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Part 141 airplanes usually cost more per hour. If you can save $25 per hour flying a 152 all over the place building part 61 cross country time, it will overcome the higher number of hours.
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The only time that is true is when the part 61 operator doesn't keep their aircraft maintained. 141 requires aircraft inspections and the inspector will make a list of what needs to be fixed before it can be tossed on the certificate.

Other than that there should be no difference between a good 61 school and a 141 school.
 
I teach at a school that offers 141 and 61. The price ends up being virtually the same when all is said and done but my theory is this: why pay the same price and get less hours? Our goal is to get as many hours as possible in the long run so go part 61. However, I am a huge advocate of doing your instrument part 141 as it eliminates the requirement for the 50 hours cross country PIC for the rating. After that, you can build time for your commercial both VFR and IFR.

My .02
 
mshunter said:
Explain. Just stating that it is, is irrevelant. I could say I sailed the coast of Algeria ya know, and have all these neat pictures to prove it.;)
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Zero hours to flying solo IMC will be cheaper via 141 because of the x-c requirement under 61. The 35 and 40 difference is a wash. Of course then if you are looking to build to 250 hours for a 61 commercial then the 141 PPL/Inst. won't make a difference, just be another wash.

Algeria you say. I've never been. Is it nice this time of year? :pirate:
 
Guys, it all depends on the aircraft you fly and the instructor rate. Personally, over time, I have seen in all depends on those two. Regardless, the rate per license across the US has been pretty much the same. The only end result is how many hours you come up with when it is all said and done (and, what some may say, a greater difference in pilot skill).

For instance, at DCA the rate for the SR20 is 125/hr last I looked, and 61/hr for instructor. Many part 61 schools I see its around the range 120-140/hr for a 172 G1000 and 47/hr for instructor. Now, this is glass, and obviously some steam gauge planes are cheaper.
 
So for someone with their PPL wanting to get their instrument rating, would you recommend going 141 for the IA if I plan on switching back to 61 afterwards? Money is pretty tight for me right now because I'm 17 and I have a minimum wage job (and school). I saw this online for a part 141 school http://executiveflyers.com/instrument_rating/ and it looks pretty good because its $8100 in an arrow, so I can bang out the complex endorsement too. I wouldn't have to get some of the stuff there like the pilot kit since I already have one, so it would be like $7500ish.

If I was to time build 50 PIC XC hours, thats $5000 right there, not including any (or maybe a little) instrument training. Which is the better way to go for the IA alone right now, and maybe thinking of commercial later?
 
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