I think he's being moreso matter of fact, than narcissistic at all. The fact being that the type rating thing is not an issue for the AirTran guys, as it's already covered by SWA; so those guys dont have a dog in the fight.
$100 user fee
- Thread starter JayAre
- Start date
I think he's being moreso matter of fact, than narcissistic at all. The fact being that the type rating thing is not an issue for the AirTran guys, as it's already covered by SWA; so those guys dont have a dog in the fight.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Exactly. It's a question of labor law. ALPA is prohibited legally from negotiating anything having to do with SWAPA pilots, and SWAPA is prohibited legally from negotiating anything having to do with AirTran pilots. There can be only one collective bargaining agent for a pilot group. That's a key difference between the RLA and the NRLA. So, since AirTran pilots don't have to buy a type rating, it doesn't affect us, and we have no ability to bargain over the issue. It's simply not our place.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Why does matter to whom the money is paid? If it's coming out the employees (or potential employees) pocket, it's PFT in my book. You could be putting it in the collection plate at church for all I care.
And for what it's worth, the few times I've known PFT to happen in the corporate world, the money goes directly to the training center (with no affiliation to the employer), not the employer.
I think the difference, in my view, is because the 737 type is all that is required. You either have it or you don't. It's not like if you already have it, then you have to shell out extra cash for some kind of special "SWA 737 type". If you don't have it, then you go get it, if you happen to get hired.
So, here's a scenario:
Pilot #1: Furloughed from UAL. Flew 737s with them. Had type rating from UAL. Interviews and gets hired by SWA. Is good to go.
Pilot #2: Flew C-141s in the USAF for 5 years. Flew final 3 years of his committment in T-43As. Got 737 type rating from the Gator training. Interviews and gets hired by SWA. Good to go.
Pilot #3: Flying for X regional in ERJs, no 737 type. Interviews with SWA ....knows he would need a 737 type if hired. Gets hired and now needs to get a 737 type. Needs to find a way to make it happen.
Now, Pilots 1 and 2 didnt need to do anything special or aboveboard to walk into SWA after getting hired. The fact that Pilot 3 has to have an additional requirement to get hired isn't SWAs problem, as he knew it beforehand. IF for some reason, ALL THREE pilots had to pay some kind of monetary fee in order to start at SWA, THEN Id call it "pay to play". But they don't. Only the guy who doesn't meet the qualification requirement that they have does. Since everyone doesn't have to "pay to play", then to me its not PFJ. Pilots 1 and 2 were fully qualified, regardless of how that came to be. Pilot 3 wasn't just yet and had one more requirement to meet as a condition of employment.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Seriously? Because that's a huge benefit to the employer. The employer is removing the cost of training from their expenses. Essentially, the employee is subsidizing the company. That's not the case with SWA. The FAA still requires them to run a full training program, just like any other airline. They get no financial benefit from the requirement. It's just a way (in their mind) to ensure that the people coming are "true believers" who have shown the commitment to wanting to work for SWA.
Like I said, that might be a cultural difference between the corporate and airline world. I've never worked corporate, so I don't know your world. I know that there aren't too many airline pilots around who object about the SWA type rating requirement, though (unfortunately).
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
So why can't SWA pick up the tab for that one pilot? Hell, they already saved $16,000 by not having to type the other two.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Tread lightly here, ATN. Trust me, next time your CBA is up for renegotiation, your union comrades will be calling you a management stooge faster than you can say "Eugene V. Debbs"! And they'll be right
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
No, they didn't. They didn't save a dime. They still have to run the exact same training program as if the pilot wasn't typed. The FAA gives them no credit. This isn't corporate, this is the airlines.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Frankly, I've never cared what anyone calls me. I only care that I do the right thing. And if working with airline management towards mutually beneficial goals is the right thing, then I'll happily do it and take the heat from morons.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
I understand the financial aspect for the airline. The question was posed more along the lines of "why does where the money goes make a difference in the PFT litmus test?"
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Because the entire problem with PFT is the financial aspect for the airline. That's what makes it wrong!
Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily support the fact that SWA requires a type, when other airlines don't. I just don't consider it dictionary-definition PFJ because it's not some kind of thing that everyone is required to do, like say cut SWA a $10K check prior to getting hired. It's just a condition of employment that (to me) is more than it needs to be. But its not classic PFJ, to me.
Back in the day, when airlines had FEs, the majority of them didn't require you to currently possess an FEJ; they just required you to have the FEJ written completed and current. You'd then get your FEJ from training if you were hired and assigned to be an SO on and aircraft that had one. That, I agree with.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yep. And a lot of their pilots cheer it on as a great litmus test for prospective pilots, too! Really, you can't even begin to understand the level of kool aid flowing. It's shocking.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
I'm not following. In the previous post, you said they don't save a dime by hiring someone that already possesses the type rating, but in this one you say PFT is a financial aspect (I'm assuming a positive one) for the airline.
Not trying to stir up an argument...I just really don't understand. Or maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. Like you having no experience with corporate training, I have no experience with airline training.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I think you misunderstood. My point is that this isn't PFT, because SWA receives no financial benefit to the transaction whatsoever. Their costs are identical to what they would be without the type rating requirement. Therefore, it's not PFT.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
SWA wanting a 73 type is no different than people I fly for wanting XXX 206 hours or XXX tailwheel time. I have no problem with it, and everyone that wants to work there knows that. For what get pay, a 73 type is cheap anyway.
If they were asking you to pay for all training before you were on the line, different story. But they don't.
If they were asking you to pay for all training before you were on the line, different story. But they don't.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
to be completely honest I've tried defending swa on that in the past. Now I just think its stupid.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Gotcha. I guess that's a factor I never considered, or was even aware of. In the corporate world, it's big big bucks to put someone through a type rating. My Challenger type was somewhere around $25,000, and that's for a 22 year old airplane. A buddy of mine said his Falcon 7X type was somewhere around $75k. Rumor has it the new G650 will be upwards of $90k. Since it's not a situation where the pilot has to go in the box anyway, it's either the owner/operator or the pilot that picks up the tab for the type.
But that still doesn't change how I categorize SWAs practices.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Ok, I just wanted to see what the consensus on this was. I feel the same way about it, and in some ways, feel worse about training contracts than paying for a type rating.
Similar threads
