$100 user fee

TFaudree_ERAU said:
The hell it doesn't. Your new/soon to be parent company...
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You consider buying a type rating to be PFT? A type rating can be used anywhere. It isn't purchased from the employer. Granted, I despise the practice, but I wouldn't say that it's PFT. It's a completely different category of problem.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You consider buying a type rating to be PFT? A type rating can be used anywhere. It isn't purchased from the employer. Granted, I despise the practice, but I wouldn't say that it's PFT. It's a completely different category of problem.
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Ok, I'll ask it.

So what is your ALPA going to do about it?
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
How do I put this?

Yes. If it walks like a duck...

You pay, they train you. Pay for training.
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You don't have to pay anything to work at SWA. SWA is filled with pilots who had the government or their former employers pay for their 737 type ratings. No out of pocket spending required.

Sorry, but as much as I hate the policy, it's not PFT.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You don't have to pay anything to work at SWA. SWA is filled with pilots who had the government or their former employers pay for their 737 type ratings. No out of pocket spending required.

Sorry, but as much as I hate the policy, it's not PFT.
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A drop of poison in the kool-aid taints the whole batch...
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Nothing. ALPA doesn't represent Southwest pilots. You should ask SWAPA.
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Shouldn't you be since you are rolling into SWA? Not sure if the timing but what are the 717 pilots to do that font have the 737 type?
 
Seems pretty simple to me, in order to get hired at SWA...you must have a 737 type rating by class time...which you pay for, out of pocket...thus your hiring status is contingent upon you paying for a type rating in order to fly at said employee.

Sounds like a PFJ/PFT operation to me...but people are falling all over themselves to do it, cause look at all the moniez i'll make! OMG!!!!one!1!
 
SurferLucas said:
Seems pretty simple to me, in order to get hired at SWA...you must have a 737 type rating by class time...which you pay for, out of pocket...thus your hiring status is contingent upon you paying for a type rating in order to fly at said employee.

Sounds like a PFJ/PFT operation to me...but people are falling all over themselves to do it, cause look at all the moniez i'll make! OMG!!!!one!1!
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You don't have to pay for one, in fact there is no way to pay Southwest or any entity affiliated with Southwest to get one. It's like saying a job that has a requirement that you show up to class with an ATP is a PFT if you only have a CPL.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
You don't have to pay for one, in fact there is no way to pay Southwest or any entity affiliated with Southwest to get one. It's like saying a job that has a requirement that you show up to class with an ATP is a PFT if you only have a CPL.
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Who said anything about paying SWA for it? Even at the little Part 135 operation I flew for, they required an ATP, hired me with a CPL and had my ATP/135 ride all at the same time...just because it says "You must have this type rating to work here" doesn't make it right...esp for an airline.
 
Doctors go to med school. We go to flight school (be it to obtain a commercial or ATP rating). Doctors get new gadgets and gizmos at the hospital. We get new airplanes to fly. Hospital pays for doctors to learn new gadgets and gizmos. Pilots pay to learn how to fly new airplanes. Doctors happy to use new gadgets and gizmos for which hospital paid for them to learn. Pilot is unemployed because he can't afford to pay for training on new airplane.

Sounds about right doesn't it?
 
SurferLucas said:
Who said anything about paying SWA for it? Even at the little Part 135 operation I flew for, they required an ATP, hired me with a CPL and had my ATP/135 ride all at the same time...just because it says "You must have this type rating to work here" doesn't make it right...esp for an airline.
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And you paid for an ATP written, therefore you did PFT by your logic. But that doesn't make any sense.

The key word for PFT is "pay". You have to pay someone. A company with a PFT program you either pay the air carrier itself for the cost of training or some third party that is affiliated with the air carrier (Flight Safety for example.) Simply requiring a particular certificate like an ATP isn't PFT -- most 135 companies do not have check airman who are air program designees so they cannot give a ATP certificate with their proficiency check. That means that they have to get an FAA inspector to do the checkride which may be difficult to schedule or problematic (especially for certain FSDOs.) Not to mention that if you're taking your ATP ride along with your part 135 checkride you no longer can be retrained and rechecked during the checkride (up to 3 times) during your checkride which may increase failure rates which may increase washout rates. There are a variety of reasons where it would become impractical or at least not worth it to the air carrier to get an ATP with your 135 ride, hence some simply require you to have an ATP.

Now, it WOULD be PFT if they said: 'You're hired, you don't have an ATP though so we've scheduled you at AllATPs to get one before you come to class. At your expense.'

It would also be PFT if they said 'You have to be Flight Safety current to be hired' but simply saying 'Have to have king air type rating' which could be 20 years old isn't PFT. There are thousands of corporate jobs that state 'Seeking only people with 500 hours PIC in type.' I don't consider that PFT, do you?
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Doctors go to med school. We go to flight school (be it to obtain a commercial or ATP rating). Doctors get new gadgets and gizmos at the hospital. We get new airplanes to fly. Hospital pays for doctors to learn new gadgets and gizmos. Pilots pay to learn how to fly new airplanes. Doctors happy to use new gadgets and gizmos for which hospital paid for them to learn. Pilot is unemployed because he can't afford to pay for training on new airplane.

Sounds about right doesn't it?
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Ask Mr. Empty Suit, and he'll tell you it sounds great because it reduces the number of pilots coming into the industry and will increase the leverage of the airline pilot.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
So - how much do you think is "fair" for a business flight of an aircraft? As the proposal is written, business use of a turboprop or piston is the same $100 fee as for a Gulfstream.

Let's look at what the AATF actually pays for though:

EAS - this is a benefit to airlines (not GA), correct?
ATC/NextGen - good for everyone, but mostly helps airlines.
Airport Improvements - 84% of this money has historically been spent on primary airports, essentially only benefiting airlines. GA fields get about 14% - these are 90% of US airports... http://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/media/aip_innovative_financing_options.pdf
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Then the fuel tax on a Cessna 172 going from one non-towered airport to another non-towered airport is dropped into the trust fund. That doesn't benefit the Cessna 172 pilot, yet some say he isn't paying his "fair share". Ironically, the ones saying that are mostly the same drool when Barry speaks to the 47% who don't pay any income tax about how the ones who pay the lion's share of the tax aren't paying their "fair share".
 
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