drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
That's right, so long as you got yours, screw the next guy...
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- Thread starter JayAre
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That's right, so long as you got yours, screw the next guy...
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Didn't say that, now did I? He asked why ALPA isn't doing anything about it. The answer is that it's not ALPA's place. ALPA represents AirTran pilots, not Southwest pilots. The AirTran pilots are taken care of. ALPA has no legal authority to negotiate with Southwest on anything that doesn't affect us. That's SWAPA's jurisdiction. If someone is going to fight the type rating problem, it has to be SWAPA. And they don't seem to care too much, because they actually do have the attitude that you wrongfully accuse me of having.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
So I have to ask...
If SWAPA said "all the ATN 717 pilots have to secure their own 737 type ratings, or else...", how would you feel?
If SWAPA said "all the ATN 717 pilots have to secure their own 737 type ratings, or else...", how would you feel?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I wouldn't feel anything. Our CBA prohibits it.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
OK, lets try this another way.
Theoretically, in a far far away land, there is an airline, for which you work, and another airline, at which SOME of the pilots purchased a type rating, and as a condition of a theoretical merger, their airline told your airline that your fellow pilots had to purchase that type rating, or else...
Let's leave unions and CBAs out of the scenario.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I've already been pretty clear that I oppose the policy, so I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
It's just not PFT.
It's just not PFT.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
So what is it? Quantify your statement. It's not PFT, but it's _________
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Um, it's buying a type rating. Really, this isn't all that complicated.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
In the SWA new-hire example, if you go to the interview knowing that one of the things required to have before you start class IF you're hired, is a 737 type rating. Why should one then be surprised or angry if they get hired, then have to find some way to gain said 737 type before the first day of class? It's not like SWA popped this on them as a surprise the day before class.....they knew it before even getting an interview.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
I was in Challenger initial with a guy that shelled out $25k of his own money for the type. His employment was conditional on him earning the type.
That type of thing is a "crucifiable" offense in the corporate world.
Pay
For
Training
Come on. Stop twisting his words. You're taking him out of context.
But yes, it has been his position for 4 years, at least. I just bored with reading all of the double sided drivel.
The guys at NMM that were looking at getting out were all taking leave to get theirs. It's amazing what the conversations are about when you have an 04 and an 05, and a fly on the wall E5 shutterbug, hanging in the RDO shack biding their time, looking forward to getting out. This was 04-06. Steady stream of guys.
Conversation went something like, "It's BS we have to pay for the type."
"Yeah, but we're getting out and making more money in a year than in 3 doing this."
"Yeah, this isn't bad work."
"THIS isn't bad work. The squadron is bad work. So sick of the BS. If I could just show and fly, brief, debrief, we' be good."
"Man, so today, skipper comes up to me and ...... "
How is it pay for training? Sure, you paid for the type, but unless there was some kind of secret that wasn't told to you, you went to the interview....interview, mind you, not yet even hired....knowing you would need the typeif hired. If you weren't hired, then no problem. If you are hired, then you get it. Don't like the policy, don't work there. There are any number of other airlines to go apply to.
I think it would be worse if you needed the type rating just to even get an interview.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
And that's exactly my attitude toward any establishment that requires me to pay out of pocket for a type rating that I need to work there.
People that worked for Gulfstream International KNEW they had to pay to sit in the right seat. Everyone and their brother knew that's how it was. But we still bash the hell out of anyone that worked there for being a "PFT/PFJ'er"
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
It's two people on different sides of the fence. You won't find a corporate pilot being caught dead paying for a type rating or any kind of school. All it takes is one guy doing it to muck it up for everyone else.
Same reason I won't work for a regional, ever. Im worth far more than they're willing to ever pay me, the job overall is uninteresting to me, as is the lifestyle. So, I don't apply to work at any of them. It's no problem.
The difference between Gulfstream and SWA is a huge one. SWA requires a 737 type. If someone already has one....regardless of how they got it.......and gets hired there, then wheres the PFJ? Answer: there is none. It's the SAME requirement that those people have, that someone without said 737 type rating would have. But person without, knows they must need it. So they'll have to get it if the want to work there after getting hired......IF they even get hired..
Gulfstream, everyone had to pay, regardless. The whole operation for co-pilots was pay to play. I say co-pilots, because Gulfstream did actually hire normal qualified people for street captain positions that were not PFJ.
js0305
Well-Known Member
It may not be your intent and you may not care, but this post makes you sound very narcissistic.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
You and I feel the same way about the regionals. I won't say ever, because I may some day become desparate eno...wait, no. I won't.
I understand the difference. Actually, no I don't.
With what little bit of attention I paid to GIA back in the day, I seem to remember that ANYONE that worked there wore a scarlet letter, regardless if they PFJ'd or not. Obviously that's changed now with the name and that they can't sell the right seat, but when they could...
So why is it not the same at SWA? Again, it goes back to my analogy of poison in the Kool-Aid. Some PFJ'ers in the right seat of a 1900 poisoned the entire GIA operation. You're saying some PFT'ers at SWA don't do the same? Why not?
Oh, because SWA is considered a career destination. Got it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Understood. And again, I'm opposed to the policy. I think it's wrong to require a professional pilot who's already proven himself to have to purchase a type rating prior to employment. SWA views it as a way to "prove your commitment," and show that you want to work for SWA so badly that you're willing to spend $6,000 for the opportunity. It's just part of their weird CULTure, which is why you don't see SWA pilots or SWAPA complaining about it. They're all guzzling the kool aid.
But again, as wrong as I think the policy is, it's just not PFT. Maybe the corporate world has a different definition, but in the airline world, PFT is defined as paying your employer (or their designated training partner) for your training. That's just not what happens with SWA. It's not PFT. It's something else bad, but it's not PFT.
