Is a roll that big of a deal?

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And if you missed on page 2, there is a professional stunt pilot video, breaking the wings in flight (which seems to be straight and level) somewhere in Texas, because of the previously induced airframe stress. I'm sure he knew how to do the maneuver, he preflighted the plane properly, and still he died. I don't want to be the guy whose wings fall off in straight and level.

Do you have a link? No such video can be found on page two.

Sure. What I don't see is how it relates to this argument. What we ARE talking about is an untrained pilot -- Holocene -- trying to perform the maneuver in a non-aerobatic aircraft. This is where there is a high potential for performing the maneuver incorrectly. The result of which is higher than normal aerodynamic loads and stresses, which could damage the aircraft.

I never said it was OK for anyone, either a trained pilot, or especially an untrained pilot to be doing any kind of aerobatics in any kind of airplane. All I'm saying is that a properly done barrel roll is not unsafe if executed properly, even if the plane is not certified to do aerobatics, which is exactly what the OP was asking.

Every time threads like this pop up (and by "like this" I mean threads where the topic of discussion isn't always as simple as "yes" or "no"), a "yes" or "no" consensus is reached upon, and anyone with a stance even approaching "no" is vilified and insulted. Its like as long as you're on the "right" side of the argument, you can just say whatever you want, even if there is no evidence to back up what you're saying. Its intellectually dishonest.

It bothers me that people here are so polarizing. Its either you toe the party line and hold the belief that anyone doing a barel roll in a un-certified airplane makes you an attempted murderer and will, with 100% certainty cause a death in the future, OR you are an attempted murderer who is going to with 100% certainty kill someone since you are a "murderer enabler". Its stupid, and is what causes me to always take the "devils advocate" side (if you want to call it that) in these mob-rule threads.

If by "unprovoked" you mean the aircraft is sitting on the ramp at one G and zero knots, sure. But any time the aircraft is in flight, there are forces being imparted on it that could be the proverbial straw breaking the back.

Yes, it IS possible to have structural damage severe enough that failure/breakup occurs with only "ordinary" in-flight forces being imparted -- and which does not feature damage visible during a preflight walk-around.

People do dumb crap in rental airplanes all the time. I doubt theres a single C152 flying today that hasn't been rolled or looped (which is what I meant when I said "flip" earlier), yet you don't hear of C152's breaking apart on a daily basis. I'm sure it's possible, but Its not even remotely common enough for everyone to be taking such a hard line stance on the matter. But hey, if you all can provide me evidence that airplanes are falling out of the sky straight and level, I'll sure change my stance.
 
I never said it was OK for anyone, either a trained pilot, or especially an untrained pilot to be doing any kind of aerobatics in any kind of airplane. All I'm saying is that a properly done barrel roll is not unsafe if executed properly, even if the plane is not certified to do aerobatics, which is exactly what the OP was asking.
I think it was agreed that it CAN be done safely (FAA certificate action not withstanding ). Most people also contended that it SHOULDN'T be done. The video (which is discussed at the beginning of this thread) shows it pretty clear. A professional stunt pilot manages to screw things up.
 

Thats not quite straight and level. I thought it was weird that both wings would fail at the exact same time... From the NTSB report linked from the youtube video:

RECONSTRUCTION OF THE SEQUENCE FROM A VIDEOTAPE REVEALED THAT THE ACFT'S SPEED AT THE TIME OF THE WING SEPARATIONS WAS 220 KTS. VNE FOR THE ACFT IS 193 KTS. IT WAS CALCULATED THAT, AT 220 KTS & AN 8 DEG NOSE-UP PITCH, THE 'G' LOAD AT THE TIME OF THE WING SEPARATIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN 8.3 G'S.
 
I stand corrected. It was difficult to see that video other than straight and level. Still, my point about fine (invisible) structural cracks stands, as I worked personally on software meant for their detection. In any case, I'll be even more thorough in my preflight after reading this thread...
 
91.13 dude.

Unless the airplane is approved for aerobatics. Like someone else said the airplane might not break up in flight while you are pretending you're Bob Hoover, but maybe the next time someone tries a steep turn or lazy eight..

If I ever catch anyone doing it in one of my planes I'll straight up call the FAA on them.

Educate yourself
:yeahthat:

Lets see the FAA is good at making rules. YES! Well why do they make rules? Because someone killed themselves doing what the rule is telling you not to do!!!

The FAA is not always out to get you, They (most times) do things for your safety.
 
I have a pretty good grip on the situation . . .
Some people here need to get a grip. The act of doing a roll or flip is not in and of itself going to cause the airframe to break up, unless you do the maneuver all wrong.
Who are you (not directed at anyone particular) to declare someone is or isn't up to that task?If the person is asking about it on an internet forum, I (me personally) could say that the person is not up to the task, with a high probability of accuracy . In my experience, you don't have to be a Bob Hoover in order to be able to do a barrel roll every time with some certainty of not messing it up. Based on your arguments, your experience seems limited. Particularly after you make the following point

And another thing. If a plane is damaged to the point where the airframe will likely breakup when the next renter tries turns around a point, there is going to be some kind of external indication of the damages. this is stated as fact, and disproven and you don't even acknowledge it

If a pilot tries to fly a plane with crinkled skin or a bent wing, can you really fell sorry for them if they crashed?This is an appaling statement.


That said, all of this only pertains to rolls and flips where the plane only experiences minor G-forces. Doing hammerheads and things like that open a whole nother can of potential problems, such as the battery leaking mentioned earlier.
This is where you made a statement (of fact) about an aerobatic maneuver you were not able or willing to describe.( I have only been upside down once so I don't know the terminology either) but this is why so many of us are trying to get you to rethink your statement, and question your experience.



I never said it was OK for anyone, either a trained pilot, or especially an untrained pilot to be doing any kind of aerobatics in any kind of airplane. All I'm saying is that a properly done barrel roll is not unsafe if executed properly, even if the plane is not certified to do aerobatics, which is exactly what the OP was asking.

Every time threads like this pop up (and by "like this" I mean threads where the topic of discussion isn't always as simple as "yes" or "no"), a "yes" or "no" consensus is reached upon, and anyone with a stance even approaching "no" is vilified and insulted. Its like as long as you're on the "right" side of the argument, you can just say whatever you want, even if there is no evidence to back up what you're saying. Its intellectually dishonest. It's intelllectually lazy to hold tightly to an opinion in the face of so many who have so much more exoerience than you on this issue.The person making an argument so obviously outside the realm of common sense is the one with the burden of proof, and we have several experts here who have questioned your stated perspective.

It bothers me that people here are so polarizing. Its either you toe the party line and hold the belief that anyone doing a barel roll in a un-certified airplane makes you an attempted murderer and will, with 100% certainty cause a death in the future, OR you are an attempted murderer who is going to with 100% certainty kill someone since you are a "murderer enabler".hyperbole Its stupid, and is what causes me to always take the "devils advocate" side (if you want to call it that) in these mob-rule threads.

I like someone who will take the other side of a logical argument, I will at times in order for a discussion to be productive take the other side of an argument. What we have here is some kid with questionable common sense asking a question about a subject that could be very risky for him, his passengers, others on the ground, or future renters of the aircraft he plans on violating FAR's or POH's or rental agreements in and we are trying to inject some common sense in his direction. We don't need someone "playing devils advocate" with an indefensable argument.


People do dumb crap in rental airplanes all the time. I doubt theres a single C152 flying today that hasn't been rolled or looped (which is what I meant when I said "flip" earlier), yet you don't hear of C152's breaking apart on a daily basis. I'm sure it's possible, but Its not even remotely common enough for everyone to be taking such a hard line stance on the matter. But hey, if you all can provide me evidence that airplanes are falling out of the sky straight and level, I'll sure change my stance.
Learn from the mistakes of others . . . you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
 
Whether or not it "can" be done is inmaterial to me. The bottom line is that the airplane is not approved for that operation, and anyone who does it anyway as an armchair test pilot does not possess the maturity level required to fly airplanes. Pure and simple. One could argue this from a number of angles, but if I ran a flight school and you were caught doing something like that, you'd never fly one of my airplanes again (and would likely never fly any aircraft again when the FAA is done with you. Not preaching, just stating facts.

Speaking of "comfort level", say I felt comfortable going 100 feet below minimums on every ILS even if I didn't see jack, but hell I'm a good enough stick I can peg those needles all the way down! Does that make it an okay practice just because I know I 'can' do it? Of course not! Re-attach your brain to your body!

By all means knock yourself out in an approved airplane with a qualified instructor, but please respect the limits of the plane you're flying.
 
Many of us have thousands of GA hours. All of us dumb professional pilots know that you could do some aerobatics in non certified GA aircraft. The question is: WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO? Why take such a risk? How many pilots with serious aerobatic training think this doesn't involve greater risk than such maneuvers in a properly certified aircraft? It’s all about risk. (To you, the plane, your certificate etc.)

No matter how safely you can do them I promise there are many nice people at the FSDO who are "here to help," that will hang you out to dry if they catch wind of such behavior. Can anyone seriously argue against that?

Most of the GA accidents we read about involve some form of carelessness, and most pilots here, at one time or another, have done less than wise things while piloting an airplane. Most looked back and said: “Whoa that was dumb. Maybe I shouldn’t try that again.” However some people don’t think that way. Negative reinforcement gets a lot of pilots into trouble. When you survive a situation that involved greater risk, you tend to think you can safely do it again, and many times you can. Sometimes you never pay the piper, so to speak. On the other hand lots of pilots that think this way eventually do break something, get violated or sometimes they run out of all 9 lives. These are the types of people that fly in ice in uncertified aircraft. . . . . Fall asleep with the autopilot on, but set their watch alarm to wake them every 10 minutes. . . . . Go below mins on approaches. . . . Take off or land in dangerous conditions. . . . . Do cruddy preflights and preflight planning. . . . . Go flying with alcohol in their systems. . . . .Enjoy flying low enough that you have to get the pine boughs out of the landing gear on the post flight. (I'm not making that up.) . . . .Take off overweight on hot days. . . . . Don't manage fuel responsibly . . . . The list goes on. WHY TAKE RISKS LIKE THAT?

Either way congrats on making such a bloody long thread!
 
Whether or not it "can" be done is inmaterial to me. The bottom line is that the airplane is not approved for that operation, and anyone who does it anyway as an armchair test pilot does not possess the maturity level required to fly airplanes. Pure and simple. One could argue this from a number of angles, but if I ran a flight school and you were caught doing something like that, you'd never fly one of my airplanes again (and would likely never fly any aircraft again when the FAA is done with you. Not preaching, just stating facts.

Speaking of "comfort level", say I felt comfortable going 100 feet below minimums on every ILS even if I didn't see jack, but hell I'm a good enough stick I can peg those needles all the way down! Does that make it an okay practice just because I know I 'can' do it? Of course not! Re-attach your brain to your body!

By all means knock yourself out in an approved airplane with a qualified instructor, but please respect the limits of the plane you're flying.

You're assuming that anyone doing something illegal is doing it recklessly. Its is very possible to operate "outside the law" while still being safe and maintaining vigilance. Its possible that many people that do shady things do them unprepared, but it's unfair to say that ALL people who do those things do them unprepared. I really believe that there is only one thing that can be certainly be said

Just curious, how do you feel about this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE

Do you think he is an idiot who should have his license taken away? If you were interviewing him for a job and you found this video, would you not hire him? If not, then why not?

Remember, it doesn't take a military trained test pilot to pull off a barrel roll without stressing the airplane. All it takes is an intermediate level of aerobatic skill.
 
Just curious, how do you feel about this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE

Do you think he is an idiot who should have his license taken away? If you were interviewing him for a job and you found this video, would you not hire him? If not, then why not?

Remember, it doesn't take a military trained test pilot to pull off a barrel roll without stressing the airplane. All it takes is an intermediate level of aerobatic skill.

lol! i was just about to post a link to this video! Bob Hoover is the man!
 
Many of us have thousands of GA hours. All of us dumb professional pilots know that you could do some aerobatics in non certified GA aircraft. The question is: WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO? Why take such a risk? How many pilots with serious aerobatic training think this doesn't involve greater risk than such maneuvers in a properly certified aircraft? It’s all about risk. (To you, the plane, your certificate etc.)

No matter how safely you can do them I promise there are many nice people at the FSDO who are "here to help," that will hang you out to dry if they catch wind of such behavior. Can anyone seriously argue against that?

Most of the GA accidents we read about involve some form of carelessness, and most pilots here, at one time or another, have done less than wise things while piloting an airplane. Most looked back and said: “Whoa that was dumb. Maybe I shouldn’t try that again.” However some people don’t think that way. Negative reinforcement gets a lot of pilots into trouble. When you survive a situation that involved greater risk, you tend to think you can safely do it again, and many times you can. Sometimes you never pay the piper, so to speak. On the other hand lots of pilots that think this way eventually do break something, get violated or sometimes they run out of all 9 lives. These are the types of people that fly in ice in uncertified aircraft. . . . . Fall asleep with the autopilot on, but set their watch alarm to wake them every 10 minutes. . . . . Go below mins on approaches. . . . Take off or land in dangerous conditions. . . . . Do cruddy preflights and preflight planning. . . . . Go flying with alcohol in their systems. . . . .Enjoy flying low enough that you have to get the pine boughs out of the landing gear on the post flight. (I'm not making that up.) . . . .Take off overweight on hot days. . . . . Don't manage fuel responsibly . . . . The list goes on. WHY TAKE RISKS LIKE THAT?

Either way congrats on making such a bloody long thread!

The stuff that's bold is not illegal, and not violateable depending on the circumstance, but is opinion, and the stuff in red is opinion.

Let's start with the first red one. That's an opinion, if you fly to the same place five times a day, in the same airplane, is your preflight going to be all that involved? No. You're going to do a quick walk walk around, nothings bent, oils good, you're gone. Why? Because at your post flight yesterday you check the airplane out good before you tucked her there's no maintenance in the book, and nobody's clearly backed a forklift into it. A preflights quality is definately something that's subjective. And since its damn near impossible to know all available information pertaining to the flight, all of our preflights probably aren't too legal either.

Number two, that is subjective there, I know plenty of people who's fuel management is "burn a tank dry, if I'm not over half way there its time to divert or turn back." Is constantly switching tanks every 15minutes any better? Your fuel will be balanced, but you'll be sweating when you have 4 gallons in each tank and the gauges are practically on empty.

Bolded #1, what are dangerous conditions? Slick runway? Gravel? Narrow? Up slope? Crosswind? There is no definition of "takeoff into dangerous conditions," who chooses what is dangerous, nobody. Look, I know people who think a 3000' runway is short, its not, and its not dangerous. None of things are dangerous, not even in combination, they only become dangerous when the extent of the variation exceeds the pilot's ability to safely handle them.

Bolded #2, not illegal. There are plenty of times part 91 when I zip back along dodging moose and trees and looking for fish or bears. If you are 500' from persons or property, you are golden. Your reaction time for reacting to an engine failure maybe reduced, but you're really not any less safe providing you maintain clearance with the ground.

As for the others, booze is bad, so is overweight, and that watch thing is rediculous, however, ice happens. Its not something you want, but sometimes even when planned around you can still run into it. Based on where you are at, and knowledge of terrain, it sometimes may be better to keep on truckin than to turn around and fly back through it, try to keep an open mind. By the way, every time I shoot an approach that terminates in a landing I descend below minimums.;)

These posts that just blanket statement things tend to aggravate me, though I'm guilty as the next guy for posting them. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and vary few things are set in stone. Sleepy time.
 
Whether or not it "can" be done is inmaterial to me. The bottom line is that the airplane is not approved for that operation, and anyone who does it anyway as an armchair test pilot does not possess the maturity level required to fly airplanes. Pure and simple. One could argue this from a number of angles, but if I ran a flight school and you were caught doing something like that, you'd never fly one of my airplanes again (and would likely never fly any aircraft again when the FAA is done with you. Not preaching, just stating facts.

Speaking of "comfort level", say I felt comfortable going 100 feet below minimums on every ILS even if I didn't see jack, but hell I'm a good enough stick I can peg those needles all the way down! Does that make it an okay practice just because I know I 'can' do it? Of course not! Re-attach your brain to your body!

By all means knock yourself out in an approved airplane with a qualified instructor, but please respect the limits of the plane you're flying.

Good advice, and for what its worth, upset training is important, i have a friend who was rolled upside down before by the weather and probably would have been less scared.
 
Pardon me . . . your ignorance, along with your arrogance is showing.

Violating a FAR is by definition unsafe behavior. They are written in blood . . . don't forget that.

This is a discussion about judgment, or lack thereof.

Wacofan, why wait to smoke that killer green, you should just go ahead and do a bong hit in the middle of your sick 1g roll, the bong water won't spill, dude!

Not true. Violating a FAR is violating a FAR. Following the rules won't always keep you safe, there are times when follwing the rules could get you killed. They are written in blood (for the most part) and should be adhered to. However, don't follow any codified set of rules to your coffin.
 
You're assuming that anyone doing something illegal is doing it recklessly. Its is very possible to operate "outside the law" while still being safe and maintaining vigilance. Its possible that many people that do shady things do them unprepared, but it's unfair to say that ALL people who do those things do them unprepared. I really believe that there is only one thing that can be certainly be said

Just curious, how do you feel about this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE

Do you think he is an idiot who should have his license taken away? If you were interviewing him for a job and you found this video, would you not hire him? If not, then why not?

Remember, it doesn't take a military trained test pilot to pull off a barrel roll without stressing the airplane. All it takes is an intermediate level of aerobatic skill.

Well, Bob Hoover is a military-trained test pilot, so I don't see the relevence of your agrument. What I said was that unless you're a qualified test pilot, you have no business exceeding the limitations prescribed for your airplane. I'm not a test pilot, and chances are neither are the yahoos who get off by doing barrel rolls in a Cessna 172. Besides, do you not see the difference between taking the necessary steps to mitigate the risk by acquiring the necessary approval to "operate outside the law" in an airshow versus serving as your own waiver authority by intentionally performing unapproved maneuvers 'just because'? And yes, I say it's generally a misnomer to imply that one can break the law but do it 'safely and vigilently' and not recklessly. Intentionally violating an FAR is, by definition, 'careless and reckless'.

Go do your aerobatics in a plane designed for it--they're not that hard to find--that's all we're saying. Use the right tool for the right job, and fly with a qualified instructor. Just because you took an EMT Basic course doesn't mean you're qualified to do brain surgery, and you're definitely not going to do it with a butter knife. If you're still gung ho to promote doing the contrary, I'll close by quoting Bob Hoover in the video clip you posted. He acknowledges that he has "been fortunate enough to survive alot of situations that many others weren't quite so lucky to have made it...a great many former friends of mine who are no longer with us simply because they cut their margins too close."
 
Well, Bob Hoover is a military-trained test pilot, so I don't see the relevence of your agrument. What I said was that unless you're a qualified test pilot, you have no business exceeding the limitations prescribed for your airplane. I'm not a test pilot, and chances are neither are the yahoos who get off by doing barrel rolls in a Cessna 172. Besides, do you not see the difference between taking the necessary steps to mitigate the risk by acquiring the necessary approval to "operate outside the law" in an airshow versus serving as your own waiver authority by intentionally performing unapproved maneuvers 'just because'? And yes, I say it's generally a misnomer to imply that one can break the law but do it 'safely and vigilently' and not recklessly. Intentionally violating an FAR is, by definition, 'careless and reckless'.

Go do your aerobatics in a plane designed for it--they're not that hard to find--that's all we're saying. Use the right tool for the right job, and fly with a qualified instructor. Just because you took an EMT Basic course doesn't mean you're qualified to do brain surgery, and you're definitely not going to do it with a butter knife. If you're still gung ho to promote doing the contrary, I'll close by quoting Bob Hoover in the video clip you posted. He acknowledges that he has "been fortunate enough to survive alot of situations that many others weren't quite so lucky to have made it...a great many former friends of mine who are no longer with us simply because they cut their margins too close."

You seem to be confusing legality with safety. If you were to go the extra mile to get the FAA's approval to do barrel rolls in a non-certified airplane, how does that approval change the safety status? What if the FAA dropped the regulation that forbids aerobatics in non-certified planes? Would it then be safe?

What would you have said If I told you I piloted an aircraft 6 months ago when my last 3rd class medical was 40 months prior to that event? What if I told you yesterday I piloted a plane when my last medical was 40 months ago? One of those situations is illegal, the other is not. But the level of safety is the same. If a pilot is capable of performing a barrel roll in a Beech 1900 without messing it up, it doesn't matter if the FAA has given them permission to do it or not, the level of safety of that maneuver is the same regardless.

What about this example: Lets say you're a professional cargo pilot flying freight between airports. You arrive at your destination and realize you forgot your wallet at home. Your medical certificate, pilot license, and photo ID were in that wallet? What do you do? Do you call up your company and tell them they need to send another plane over to where you are and "rescue" you because you can't legally (and therefore safely) pilot your plane home?

I think the point you're trying to make is that if a pilot shows willingness to break one minor regulation, then by using the "slippery slope" argument, they have no regard to legality and therefore safety and accordingly should not barred from flying. I don't agree. I think you can still be a very good and safe pilot while breaking a regulation every once in a while, in the same way you can be a good safe driver while pushing the speed limit every now and again. Now if you're the kind of person who blows through school zones at 80 mph, you're just as bad as a pilot who does split-s's in a king air. That is to say you have bad judgment. Being safe is all about assessing risk, being familiar with your skills, and operating within the realm of your skills.
 
What about this example: Lets say you're a professional cargo pilot flying freight between airports. You arrive at your destination and realize you forgot your wallet at home. Your medical certificate, pilot license, and photo ID were in that wallet? What do you do? Do you call up your company and tell them they need to send another plane over to where you are and "rescue" you because you can't legally (and therefore safely) pilot your plane home?

Actually, yes. We have procedures for that written in the FOM.

Man, I wish I knew who you were so I could get you black-balled from ever flying at my airline.
 
You seem to be confusing legality with safety.

<SNIP>

I think the point you're trying to make is that if a pilot shows willingness to break one minor regulation, then by using the "slippery slope" argument, they have no regard to legality and therefore safety and accordingly should not barred from flying. I don't agree. I think you can still be a very good and safe pilot while breaking a regulation every once in a while,

Wow.
 
I think you can still be a very good and safe pilot while (willfully!) breaking a regulation every once in a while, in the same way you can be a good safe driver while pushing the speed limit every now and again.

I disagree. Heck, the FAA and your potential employers disagree.

Just get a Super-Decathlon and a good CFI and get the urge out of your system.
 
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