Renew aopa or not to renew?

[surreal1221]

I won't say that the training is too easy.

I don't know too many other people who managed to go from Private all the way through to an SIC checkride without getting a pink slip at some point.

A majority of our professional pilots HAVE failed, at least one, if not two checkrides. Such is life.

So it's not too easy in my book.

The affordability in my opinion is the issue. And thankfully the larger issue of Credit and handing out huge loans simply for the commission is causing private loan and banks to re-evaluate their position of just simply handing money out to people for flight training, when many of these people will end up defaulting or filing bankruptcy due to the larger economic stability of individuals' lives.

So, in the end. . .it's going to become more and more harder to afford for flight training once the loans start to dry up.

 

[Barty]

I think if your primary interest is going out for a $100 hamburger or taking your significant other and kids out for a weekend trip, I'm getting the impression that the EAA may be the better organization to be affiliated with. They seem to be focused more on protecting the interests of the average Joe pilot, unlike AOPA which (at least to me) seems to be focused more on the biz-jet or high-end crowd these days. While their efforts on keeping airports open are much appreciated, I don't see them championing many causes that keeps flying affordable to the recreational pilot.

So next year, I'll probably join the EAA instead. Not to mention they seem to be better organized locally, which is where most of the pressure needs to be applied, so far as government is concerned.

 

[surreal1221]

Now, EAA. . .now that's one hell of a great organization.

 

[Barty]

The affordability in my opinion is the issue. And thankfully the larger issue of Credit and handing out huge loans simply for the commission is causing private loan and banks to re-evaluate their position of just simply handing money out to people for flight training, when many of these people will end up defaulting or filing bankruptcy due to the larger economic stability of individuals' lives.

So, in the end. . .it's going to become more and more harder to afford for flight training once the loans start to dry up.

Actually you might see a price war erupt as schools scramble to adjust their business models that at least for the past 10 years or so have been based on that easy credit. As I mentioned in another thread, once the credit starts drying up, FBOs, schools and non-equity flying clubs will have to re-think their business strategy or go out of business.

For example, in the Atlanta area, it is pretty obvious that most of the schools are in the pro-pilot mill business, in terms of the rates they charge and the aircraft they own. To stay alive they might have to start diversifying a bit so that the guy who has just had the dream of flying, irregardless if they want to make a career out of it or not, can get their license relatively inexpensively again.

I do agree with you that the whole pilot mill industry has gotten out of hand. I looked at becoming a professional pilot myself 6-7 years ago but just decided it wasn't worth the debt and job in-security. Perhaps when the easy money dries up a little some sanity will return to the industry.

 

[surreal1221]

I personally would welcome that type of revelation.

My previous employer was largely supported by overseas contract training (India). Recently they are taking part in the Chinese market.

I commend them, and was always thrilled to goto work knowing that I had a full load of students, even some American students who I also greatly enjoyed working with.

But clearly the affordability for the average American to want to learn how to fly, recreationally, is the issue at hand.

There also really are not too many great FBOs out there that have independent instructors who can bring their own students and utilize the FBO's fleet of aircraft as their training devices. Which, was the business model I earned my Private under.

Small FBO, owned 4 172s, all varying in age. A K and an M model, and then two that were much older than those two, although I can't recall the model. . .but the emphasis was on just simply having cheap, quality airplanes available for an instructor to use when his/her student needed a lesson.

Now the model is large pilot mills, that well. . .pretty much make it more of a headache to earn more than a Private considering the outrageous size of some of these operations.

 

[Zero1Niner]

I don't care whether it's easy for someone to get a PVT, but yes, I do want it to be much more difficult for someone to become a professional pilot. I think it's absurd how easy we make it in this country, and it's a big part of why this profession is being dragged down.

What the hell is wrong with this country, allowing people to to pursue their dreams..and affordably at that! Completely outrageous! I think we should make every career harder to achieve! This way we can protect the people that already have the job that others are after. [What a load of crap!]

You should be proud to live in a country where its affordable to pursue your dreams. Never ceases to amaze me what a selfish mindset some people have. It blows me away. The 'Now that I have mine, you shouldn't be able to get yours' mindset just plain sucks. Its wild how the system was somehow perfectly acceptable when you were getting your ratings, but now you want to plant the seed to make it more difficult for others behind you. Whatever....pretty self serving. I, for one, choose to give back so others can pursue the same opportunity (or more) that I have had.

And about the ads in the magazine. This would be yet another benefit from the free society that we live in. Advertisers get the pay for space to target an audience of potential customers. That's how business works in the real world. What's the big deal? If you don't want to support the services of the advertisers, then don't buy them. That hurts the advertisers worse than anything. The more readers of the mag, the higher the price the advertisers have to pay, so you not helping the cause at all by punishing AOPA by not supporting them because you don't like their advertisers. This insane implication that you are somehow looking out for the young, stupid and inexperienced next generation of pilots is silly. Each individual consumer of any product or service is responsible for themselves.

I agree with the others that have said you need to remember what got you where you are and support your roots. Just because you have reached the next stage is no reason to turn your back on what got you there in the first place. AOPA, although by no means perfect, IS the voice of general aviation, and if we want this freedom that we are extremely fortunate to have to last, we should at the very least support organizations that strive to protect those freedoms with the measly $35 (cost of a cheap meal). Otherwise the US will start to look like other countries where not only the cost, but the regulation placed on flying GA will lead to its ultimate demise (which really sucks for the large percentage of AOPA members that have no desire to fly for a living...just love to fly for fun).

 

[Barty]

There also really are not too many great FBOs out there that have independent instructors who can bring their own students and utilize the FBO's fleet of aircraft as their training devices. Which, was the business model I earned my Private under.

Small FBO, owned 4 172s, all varying in age. A K and an M model, and then two that were much older than those two, although I can't recall the model. . .but the emphasis was on just simply having cheap, quality airplanes available for an instructor to use when his/her student needed a lesson.

Now the model is large pilot mills, that well. . .pretty much make it more of a headache to earn more than a Private considering the outrageous size of some of these operations.

That's pretty much the same model the flying club I was a member of down at CCO did back in the day. They had 3-4 instructors who worked for themselves, I wrote them a check after the lesson and the club would send me a bill (try to find someplace that will still bill you, opposed to having a debit/credit card on file!) separately.

Even the place I earned my PPL at, Peachtree Flight Center, now Falcon Aviation Academy, was largely geared towards the recreational pilot when I was there. Yes, they had a professional pilot program, but if I had to guess talking to my instructor, it probably represented maybe a third of their business. It wasn't 2-3 years after I stopped flying there that they sold off just about everything I flew and replaced it with newer 172s, then when Falcon took over, almost 100% Diamond. So they went from having $50/hr wet 150s and $70/hr 172s to $140/hr DA-20s. I'm sure they like to blame the price of avgas on their rates, but the simple fact is that most of them revamped their fleets with new or nearly new aircraft so that they could show off their flashy part 141 school.

 

[surreal1221]

Well, considering I did all of my post-Private training at Falcon. . .and until about February of this year, worked there. . .

The DA-20 rates a year ago were in the $100 area. If my memory serves me correct, it was $104 an hour.

Now, wanna talk about outrageous - the Twinstar rates are killing people. I was paying around $250 an hour. I heard that about a month ago the rate is closer to $400 an hour. Ouch.

 

[Barty]

If memory serves me right, that's the rate I saw when I popped my head in there a couple of months ago, though I may have crossed it up with the DA-40s. I just remember the price made my head spin when I saw it. Even at $104 an hour, that's outrageous for a two place aircraft. Since I live up in Cobb County now I'm just flying with Superior Flight school, which is a little bit more reasonable if you join the club. I can get a 172N or P non-GPS equipped for $99/hr wet, or something with a 430W for $5/hr more. Not too bad for something to put around in.

$400/hr?? Geez...I thought the $150-160/hr they wanted for the Seneca was bad. That seems like an outright bargain now!

 

[touch-n-go]

What the hell is wrong with this country, allowing people to to pursue their dreams..and affordably at that! Completely outrageous! I think we should make every career harder to achieve! This way we can protect the people that already have the job that others are after. [What a load of crap!]

You should be proud to live in a country where its affordable to pursue your dreams. Never ceases to amaze me what a selfish mindset some people have. It blows me away. The 'Now that I have mine, you shouldn't be able to get yours' mindset just plain sucks. Its wild how the system was somehow perfectly acceptable when you were getting your ratings, but now you want to plant the seed to make it more difficult for others behind you. Whatever....pretty self serving. I, for one, choose to give back so others can pursue the same opportunity (or more) that I have had.

And about the ads in the magazine. This would be yet another benefit from the free society that we live in. Advertisers get the pay for space to target an audience of potential customers. That's how business works in the real world. What's the big deal? If you don't want to support the services of the advertisers, then don't buy them. That hurts the advertisers worse than anything. The more readers of the mag, the higher the price the advertisers have to pay, so you not helping the cause at all by punishing AOPA by not supporting them because you don't like their advertisers. This insane implication that you are somehow looking out for the young, stupid and inexperienced next generation of pilots is silly. Each individual consumer of any product or service is responsible for themselves.

I agree with the others that have said you need to remember what got you where you are and support your roots. Just because you have reached the next stage is no reason to turn your back on what got you there in the first place. AOPA, although by no means perfect, IS the voice of general aviation, and if we want this freedom that we are extremely fortunate to have to last, we should at the very least support organizations that strive to protect those freedoms with the measly $35 (cost of a cheap meal). Otherwise the US will start to look like other countries where not only the cost, but the regulation placed on flying GA will lead to its ultimate demise (which really sucks for the large percentage of AOPA members that have no desire to fly for a living...just love to fly for fun).

:yeahthat:

 

[surreal1221]

If memory serves me right, that's the rate I saw when I popped my head in there a couple of months ago, though I may have crossed it up with the DA-40s. I just remember the price made my head spin when I saw it. Even at $104 an hour, that's outrageous for a two place aircraft. Since I live up in Cobb County now I'm just flying with Superior Flight school, which is a little bit more reasonable if you join the club. I can get a 172N or P non-GPS equipped for $99/hr wet, or something with a 430W for $5/hr more. Not too bad for something to put around in.

$400/hr?? Geez...I thought the $150-160/hr they wanted for the Seneca was bad. That seems like an outright bargain now!

Yeah that $140'ish rate sounds more like the DA40 rate, and I think that was for a non-glass 40, which I was pretty sure they were getting rid of soon. The G1000 40's were in the $150'ish range.

Heard they have a new(er) 172 with G1000 on property too. . .might have to go check it out . . . but I would expect the pricing points to be similar to the Diamond 40's

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So do you think that the current system is a "problem" because it's too "easy" or economically too "affordable"

I think the former leads to the latter. Think about it. How much does it really cost to pass an ATP written in America? Just the Gleim book and the testing fee. That's it. No real learning is required, since question memorization is the name of the game, so you can buy the book and pass the test the next day. Now what does it cost under the JAA system? You can't buy a book of answers, so you have to actually know the material. That means paying for real classes, real text books, etc... And when it's done, you actually know something about aerodynamics, meteorology, navigation, etc... I would like to see a real system in this country that sees to it that new air line pilots are knowledgeable about the relevant subject matter. If we did that, the pool of available newhires would shrink, since a lot of the yahoos that are getting into now won't put in the effort that such a system would require, and the reduced supply would drive up demand. That means we would have additional leverage to better our profession. Yes, the cost of becoming a pilot would go up, and probably by quite a bit. But the profession would once again be worth it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What the hell is wrong with this country, allowing people to to pursue their dreams..and affordably at that! Completely outrageous! I think we should make every career harder to achieve! This way we can protect the people that already have the job that others are after. [What a load of crap!]

Yeah, you're right. Let's also make it just as easy for someone to become a doctor, lawyer, nurse, etc... After all, we wouldn't want to stand in the way of their "dreams."

 

[JoelT]

What the hell is wrong with this country, allowing people to to pursue their dreams..and affordably at that! Completely outrageous! I think we should make every career harder to achieve! This way we can protect the people that already have the job that others are after. [What a load of crap!]

You should be proud to live in a country where its affordable to pursue your dreams. Never ceases to amaze me what a selfish mindset some people have. It blows me away. The 'Now that I have mine, you shouldn't be able to get yours' mindset just plain sucks. Its wild how the system was somehow perfectly acceptable when you were getting your ratings, but now you want to plant the seed to make it more difficult for others behind you. Whatever....pretty self serving. I, for one, choose to give back so others can pursue the same opportunity (or more) that I have had.

And about the ads in the magazine. This would be yet another benefit from the free society that we live in. Advertisers get the pay for space to target an audience of potential customers. That's how business works in the real world. What's the big deal? If you don't want to support the services of the advertisers, then don't buy them. That hurts the advertisers worse than anything. The more readers of the mag, the higher the price the advertisers have to pay, so you not helping the cause at all by punishing AOPA by not supporting them because you don't like their advertisers. This insane implication that you are somehow looking out for the young, stupid and inexperienced next generation of pilots is silly. Each individual consumer of any product or service is responsible for themselves.

I agree with the others that have said you need to remember what got you where you are and support your roots. Just because you have reached the next stage is no reason to turn your back on what got you there in the first place. AOPA, although by no means perfect, IS the voice of general aviation, and if we want this freedom that we are extremely fortunate to have to last, we should at the very least support organizations that strive to protect those freedoms with the measly $35 (cost of a cheap meal). Otherwise the US will start to look like other countries where not only the cost, but the regulation placed on flying GA will lead to its ultimate demise (which really sucks for the large percentage of AOPA members that have no desire to fly for a living...just love to fly for fun).

So, when a organization that supposedly represents something from my past has an agenda that would cause me harm I should support it it any way? And, last time I checked the Constitution, the right to fly was no where in there.

Barty,
I was an instructor at CCO and FFC the same time you were there. Were you the creepy guy with all the guns? And, you got your signature wrong. What annoys me is all of the conservatives that can't keep their hands out of my wallet.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Yeah, you're right. Let's also make it just as easy for someone to become a doctor, lawyer, nurse, etc... After all, we wouldn't want to stand in the way of their "dreams."

Not trying to make it easier either.

Nice appeal to the emotions on that spin.

 

[JoelT]

Yeah, you're right. Let's also make it just as easy for someone to become a doctor, lawyer, nurse, etc... After all, we wouldn't want to stand in the way of their "dreams."

I really hate to say it but, I think there needs to be a civilian equivalent to the Air Force's UPT. One could still get a private and instrument the same way as today but, if they want to be an airline pilot (ATP) then they better hit the books.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I really hate to say it but, I think there needs to be a civilian equivalent to the Air Force's UPT. One could still get a private and instrument the same way as today but, if they want to be an airline pilot (ATP) then they better hit the books.

Exactly. Anyone need an example of an accident that could have been prevented by the type of knowledge that would be required learning in such a system? Pinnacle 4701. No knowledge of basic high altitude aerodynamics. Wouldn't happen under a JAA system.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Exactly. Anyone need an example of an accident that could have been prevented by the type of knowledge that would be required learning in such a system? Pinnacle 4701. No knowledge of basic high altitude aerodynamics. Wouldn't happen under a JAA system.

I though that wasn't the pilots fault.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I though that wasn't the pilots fault.

Notice that I didn't blame the pilots. I blamed the system (and the company).

 

[OldTownPilot]

Would the JAA system stop guys from not following procedures, switching seats, not declaring the full extent of their emergency, and pretending to crack beers on a ferry flight?