Renew aopa or not to renew?

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Would the JAA system stop guys from switching seats, not declaring the full extent of their emergency, and pretending to crack beers on a ferry flight?

All of that was unprofessional, but none of it caused the accident. A basic knowledge of aerodynamics in swept wing aircraft at high altitudes would have prevented this accident, regardless of "seat swapping" and such. We have a problem of pilots in this country not knowing the basics. The average regional CA doesn't even understand how to use his WX radar properly. We've done a great job of improving CRM in this country, which the area that other countries still lack in, but our aviation knowledge is extremely sub-par compared to pilots in other nations. Ever spend any time on the PPRUNE forum, specifically the technical talk section? These guys know their stuff. We are well behind.

 

[Zero1Niner]

So, when a organization that supposedly represents something from my past has an agenda that would cause me harm I should support it it any way?

How does AOPA's agenda cause you harm?

 

[OldTownPilot]

All of that was unprofessional, but none of it caused the accident. A basic knowledge of aerodynamics in swept wing aircraft at high altitudes would have prevented this accident, regardless of "seat swapping" and such. We have a problem of pilots in this country not knowing the basics. The average regional CA doesn't even understand how to use his WX radar properly. We've done a great job of improving CRM in this country, which the area that other countries still lack in, but our aviation knowledge is extremely sub-par compared to pilots in other nations. Ever spend any time on the PPRUNE forum, specifically the technical talk section? These guys know their stuff. We are well behind.

And the differences between straight wing and swept wing airplanes changes the relationships between airspeed, angle of attack and power? Stall recovery procedures at the first indication? and being so far being the power curve that you cant maintain altitude?

Say what you want about cooking the engines and core lock, they never should have been close to that situation and I would hope that every PPL knows about those things. I know all the ones that came out of our school do.

And yes, I love reading the stuff out of their tech talk forum.

 

[OldTownPilot]

How does AOPA's agenda cause you harm?

AOPA is against user fees which would 'supposedly' help the airlines.

They also push for GA access to the slot controlled hubs (LGA, JFK etc)

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And the differences between straight wing and swept wing airplanes changes the relationships between airspeed, angle of attack and power?

Well, yes, swept wing airplanes do have different aerodynamic issues than straight wing airplanes. High speed buffet margins aren't an issue in a mighty Beech, for example.

Stall recovery procedures at the first indication?

The crew followed the stall recovery procedure flawlessly. Unfortunately, the stall recovery procedure was to firewall the engines and attempt to maintain altitude. That doesn't work when you're out of excess thrust.

and being so far being the power curve that you cant maintain altitude?

The crew didn't realize that they were behind the power curve. Buffet margin charts were not available. Max cruise altitude charts were not trained. Proper use of the FMS ISA deviation function was not trained. Etc...

I would hope that every PPL knows about those things

Hate to break it to you, but they don't.

 

[Zero1Niner]

Yeah, you're right. Let's also make it just as easy for someone to become a doctor, lawyer, nurse, etc... After all, we wouldn't want to stand in the way of their "dreams."

Should we make the requirements more difficult for doctors so we can reduce the amount of people willing to be doctors in the future, just so the existing pool of doctors can make more money (I left out lawyers 'cause we really dont need any more of these)? Personally I want a doctor that chooses to be a doctor for the love of medicine, not dollar-chasers that have only their own selfish interest in mind (no matter how idealistic that may sound).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Should we make the requirements more difficult for doctors so we can reduce the amount of people willing to be doctors in the future, just so the existing pool of doctors can make more money

This is already done.

 

[Zero1Niner]

This is already done.

And you support this?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And you support this?

I do indeed. The quality of medical professionals is maintained at extremely high levels as a result.

 

[Nihon_Ni]

I think the former leads to the latter. Think about it. How much does it really cost to pass an ATP written in America? Just the Gleim book and the testing fee. That's it. No real learning is required, since question memorization is the name of the game, so you can buy the book and pass the test the next day. Now what does it cost under the JAA system? You can't buy a book of answers, so you have to actually know the material. That means paying for real classes, real text books, etc... And when it's done, you actually know something about aerodynamics, meteorology, navigation, etc... I would like to see a real system in this country that sees to it that new air line pilots are knowledgeable about the relevant subject matter. If we did that, the pool of available newhires would shrink, since a lot of the yahoos that are getting into now won't put in the effort that such a system would require, and the reduced supply would drive up demand. That means we would have additional leverage to better our profession. Yes, the cost of becoming a pilot would go up, and probably by quite a bit. But the profession would once again be worth it.

This is an interesting point. I see where you are headed, but I don't think it will have the effect you are after. Raising the ATP standard of training would effect regional/commuter FOs when they upgrade and will require an ATP rating, not entry-level pilots.

If I understand your argument, you need to stem the flow of young pilots into the industry. Raising the bar on the ATP won't do that, since it's not an entry level requirement.

I think your argument should focus on making an ATP an entry-level requirement. I don't agree with this argument, but I think that would be better than what you suggest above.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Well, yes, swept wing airplanes do have different aerodynamic issues than straight wing airplanes. High speed buffet margins aren't an issue in a mighty Beech, for example.

But they weren't having high speed buffet issues were they?

The crew followed the stall recovery procedure flawlessly. Unfortunately, the stall recovery procedure was to firewall the engines and attempt to maintain altitude. That doesn't work when you're out of excess thrust.

That is so asinine that it is almost funny. If true, Can I shoot whoever came up with that one. In order to recover from a stall you have to reduce the angle of attack and increase airspeed. The primary way is to increase power, however altitude usually needs to be sacrificed in order to do so. To me that seems so fundamental that basic pilot skills would take over to recover from a stall warning.

The crew didn't realize that they were behind the power curve. Buffet margin charts were not available. Max cruise altitude charts were not trained. Proper use of the FMS ISA deviation function was not trained. Etc...

How does a pilot not realize he is behind the power curve? Aren't those charts some of the basics? Hell, I knew they existed, and the closest i've come to a swept wing jet is dumping the #### out of them. Basic pilot skills would seem to kick in with the power curve. In piston singles energy management is so critical on go-around that this is pounded into pilots heads. At least it is where I come from.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I used the ATP exam as an example, but I'm not just talking about an ATP. I think any certificate/rating above a PVT should be far more difficult to achieve than it currently is. Getting to the point of having a Commercial Multi should not be as easy as it is now.

 

[flyguy969]

Deff renew. They support what we love doing and they have great tools!!

 

[RynoB]

But they weren't having high speed buffet issues were they?



That is so asinine that it is almost funny. If true, Can I shoot whoever came up with that one. In order to recover from a stall you have to reduce the angle of attack and increase airspeed. The primary way is to increase power, however altitude usually needs to be sacrificed in order to do so. To me that seems so fundamental that basic pilot skills would take over to recover from a stall warning.



How does a pilot not realize he is behind the power curve? Aren't those charts some of the basics? Hell, I knew they existed, and the closest i've come to a swept wing jet is dumping the #### out of them. Basic pilot skills would seem to kick in with the power curve. In piston singles energy management is so critical on go-around that this is pounded into pilots heads. At least it is where I come from.

In many jets, you maintain pitch and altitude during stall recoveries and just power out of it.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Wow, what a thread tangent

Its bed tome now, I'll pick it up tomorrow.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

But they weren't having high speed buffet issues were they?

No, they had low-speed buffet issues. I was merely providing you an example of something that is different in swept wing aircraft, since you seemed to imply that there was no difference.

That is so asinine that it is almost funny. If true, Can I shoot whoever came up with that one. In order to recover from a stall you have to reduce the angle of attack and increase airspeed. The primary way is to increase power, however altitude usually needs to be sacrificed in order to do so. To me that seems so fundamental that basic pilot skills would take over to recover from a stall warning.

How does a pilot not realize he is behind the power curve? Aren't those charts some of the basics? Hell, I knew they existed, and the closest i've come to a swept wing jet is dumping the #### out of them. Basic pilot skills would seem to kick in with the power curve. In piston singles energy management is so critical on go-around that this is pounded into pilots heads. At least it is where I come from.

I just realized that I'm debating this with someone who's never even flown an airliner and currently instructs in Cessnas. Maybe you should get some time in an airliner before you start lecturing us about stall recovery techniques in transport category aircraft being flown in airline operations.

 

[Rocketman99]

I think your argument should focus on making an ATP an entry-level requirement. I don't agree with this argument, but I think that would be better than what you suggest above.

Funny you mention that, coming home from the sim yesterday, I was talking about that very thing. The discussion involved me, my sim partner (a former Chicago Express guy), and my sim instructor (a furloughed TWA/AA guy). IMHO, I think that would be a great idea. However, I also don't think it would ever happen.

 

[OldTownPilot]

No, they had low-speed buffet issues. I was merely providing you an example of something that is different in swept wing aircraft, since you seemed to imply that there was no difference.



I just realized that I'm debating this with someone who's never even flown an airliner and currently instructs in Cessnas. Maybe you should get some time in an airliner before you start lecturing us about stall recovery techniques in transport category aircraft being flown in airline operations.

I wouldn't say I'm lecturing, but ok. I know that there are differences in swept wing jets, primarily in the buffet margins, but I also know that there are a lot of similarities too. I'm not trying to lecture buy any means. Merely discussing points and questions. Isnt tht what is supposed to go on around here?

Sure you can recover a Cessna with an increase of power at the warning with just power. But when you run out of power to apply, you have to push down. Isn't it the same way in a jet?

I'd rather be alive and not follow procedures to a t, then stall a jet all the way to the ground.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I wouldn't say I'm lecturing, but ok. I know that there are differences in swept wing jets, primarily in the buffet margins, but I also know that there are a lot of similarities too. I'm not trying to lecture buy any means. Merely discussing points and questions. Isnt tht what is supposed to go on around here?

Go back and look at your posts. It looks more like accusations against two dead pilots and lecturing than "discussing" and asking questions.

Sure you can recover a Cessna with an increase of power at the warning with just power. But when you run out of power to apply, you have to push down. Isn't it the same way in a jet?

No, we don't do things the same way in a jet. In fact, you don't even do things the same way in a turboprop. Our procedure in the 1900 was the same: max power, maintain altitude. Altitude loss is considered unacceptable. This isn't a problem if you aren't an altitude where you have no excess thrust. When you get yourselves into a situation where the airplane isn't designed to be operated, due to lack of knowledge and proper training, procedure ceases to be helpful. The pilots did exactly as they were trained: throttles to the stops, maintain altitude. The Captain is even heard on the CVR saying to "maintain altitude." That is what we are trained, and for good reason.

I'd rather be alive and not follow procedures to a t, then stall a jet all the way to the ground.

First, the airplane wasn't stalled all the way to the ground. They recovered and glided for over 100 miles. Second, as a CFI, you should be aware of how pilots react in emergency situations. In an emergency, people will do as they were trained. When the shaker and then the pusher activates, you will do exactly as you were trained. In this case, that means max thrust and hold altitude. We even follow the flight director, which will attempt to keep you at your set altitude. People aren't going to react differently under duress than they would in the training environment. They revert to their training. That's exactly why we beat this stuff into pilots' heads over and over again in the sim. We want it to be instinctual. And now you expect someone to react differently than they were trained? As a CFI, you should know better.

 

[da10pilot]

Well this thread got way off topic.

I still renew my AOPA membership. I think what they do overall is pretty good in my opinion. It's not perfect. I look at their website from time to time. It has some good information about the general aviation industry. I started in general aviation like many of us and it will always have a place for me. While I don't currently fly GA, I hope to again soon someday. I'd hate to see general aviation disappear and turn into what it's like in Europe. If you don't see yourself flying in the general aviation market again or don't care about it, then it's probably not worth it.