Log book lies

Chief Captain said:
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
Subpart A—General
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§ 61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;
(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.
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This seems to suggest that padding a logbook is only illegal if you use the bogus hours for applying for a certificate or rating, or to show currency.

It probably wouldn't take much to convince a judge that it also amounts to insurance fraud, if it's done to circumvent insurance mins.
 
You won't get caught, I know too many people who have done it at one time or another and they have very successful careers.
 
aloft said:
This seems to suggest that padding a logbook is only illegal if you use the bogus hours for applying for a certificate or rating, or to show currency.
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Problem being, if you use BIC time to apply to an airline or 135 op, sooner or later you're using it to apply for your ATP and down you go!
 
Again, you'll never get caught. Everybody's got these horror stories about how they know "this guy" who got his certificates ripped away from him, but there are A TON of people who have logged some BIC time and never had any problems with it.

Ask me about at NJC.
 
jtrain609 said:
Again, you'll never get caught. Everybody's got these horror stories about how they know "this guy" who got his certificates ripped away from him, but there are A TON of people who have logged some BIC time and never had any problems with it.

Ask me about at NJC.
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Realizing that you're just playing devil's advocate, the problem in my view isn't with the relatively slim chance of becoming 'this guy' who got his certificates revoked, the problem is with the 100% chance becoming 'that guy' who doesn't have the moral fortitude to do the right thing! Just because it is unlikely you'll get caught, doesn't mean it should be done.

Soooooo......NJC? ;)
 
madmax said:
I have never heard that Cert's get revoked until this thread. It looks like regs state that you are in violation for making up "required" entries for currency and such. So can't you argue that your currency was actually flown, but the other times made up?
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Well if you read the reg carefully it says "Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook....OR....blah blah blah records to show currency etc." The key word here is OR. If it is in your logbook, it has to be legit. In fact, if you have some other record to show curency, you are not even required to keep a logbook, but according to this reg, if you do choose to keep one for whatever reason (airline interview perhaps) it must be legit.
 
faceof5 said:
How would you get caught when applying for your ATP and not elsewhere?
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aloft suggested that padding the log book would only get you in trouble when applying for a new certificate per 61.59. Wasn't saying you'd get caught.

Anyone who thinks your average pilot doesn't subscribe to moral relativism doesn't know many pilots.
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Perhaps - while I have flown with a few jerks, most of the pilots I've flown with are and were professional.
 
aloft said:
This seems to suggest that padding a logbook is only illegal if you use the bogus hours for applying for a certificate or rating, or to show currency.
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No you cannot. Falsely logging time is just as illegal for the student pilot as the airline captain 2 weeks from retirement.

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or...
 
It is called "P51ing" (I think after the pen not so much the airplane). You have any incident and the FAA will hammer you. The fool that killed Aaliyah (pop singer)and entourage p51 his logbook and the FAA caught it, unfortunately for all involved he killed everyone on the plane. You gotta live with yourself, as someone else pointed out.
 
gtpilot said:
Realizing that you're just playing devil's advocate, the problem in my view isn't with the relatively slim chance of becoming 'this guy' who got his certificates revoked, the problem is with the 100% chance becoming 'that guy' who doesn't have the moral fortitude to do the right thing! Just because it is unlikely you'll get caught, doesn't mean it should be done.

Soooooo......NJC? ;)
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I'm not playing devil's advocate at all. Let me say it again for you.

You will not get caught.

I'm not saying you should do it, I'm saying you won't get caught.

Trust me. I've never padded my logbook but know plenty of folks who have.
 
there are plenty of people who have done it, I heard a guy from south africa who says that its a big problem there that you can only "cheat on 10%" anything over ten percent and its obvious. still unadvisable.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm not playing devil's advocate at all. Let me say it again for you.

You will not get caught.

I'm not saying you should do it, I'm saying you won't get caught.

Trust me. I've never padded my logbook but know plenty of folks who have.
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I know a couple of people that have done it, too. How would anyone know the difference?
One guy in particular padded a couple of hundred hours after he graduated Riddle because he told me "...who would suspect me?". A duchass to an RJ and guess what, even if he had flown those hours what good would it have done him in that jet?
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.
 
There was a guy at my flight school who falsified his 141 records and swore up and down to his instructor that his solo time was legitimate. The Cheif Flight Instructor pulled his records, pulled his invoices, and confronted him on a night solo singed complete that matched an invoice marked 4:15pm. He lied at first, and then admitted. I'm embarrassed with the outcome.

A slap on the wrist, no FAA, no academic board hearings, redid the lesson, finished the program, graduated, PFT'd, Mesa. :(
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm not playing devil's advocate at all. Let me say it again for you.

You will not get caught.

I'm not saying you should do it, I'm saying you won't get caught.

Trust me. I've never padded my logbook but know plenty of folks who have.
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Here's the story of one guy who "will not get caught"

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/5039.PDF

(BTW, it's also the case that deals with the "it didn't really count" argument)
 
I'm not going to deny that case, midlife, but I'll bet you I can name at least 10 guys off the top of my head for that 1 that didn't get caught.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm not going to deny that case, midlife, but I'll bet you I can name at least 10 guys off the top of my head for that 1 that didn't get caught.
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I'd guess it's a little like cheating on your taxes. You're probably not going to get caught, but if you do (and it does happen, perhaps rarely), the gubmint will make an example out of you.


I find it interesting that so many people who do pad their time apparently feel comfortable enough about it to tell others. Things that make you go, "hmmmm . . . ".
 
Most of them are not, actually.

I've never padded my logbook (if I was going to do it, you'd be seeing me sitting in the left seat of a Metroliner right now instead of sitting in the right seat of an RJ), but I've got buddies who have. It's not like we were sitting around talking about girls one day and they yelled out, "Yeah I'm a real man, I padded my logbook!" But if you talk with enough guys long enough, it comes out. Different guys do different things; some guys need a few extra hours of multi time to get an interview, some guys need another 20 hours of night to make 135 mins, etc. etc.

And NJA_Capt is right, you can tell who REALLY has 2,000 hours and who SAYS they have 2,000 hours when they are goign through a 135 training program. That's the real litnus right there.
 
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