What's the deal with anti-Leather jackets?

Doug Taylor said:
Probably the only issue I have is that if you want to move up in the ranks, it's probably best to show a little grace under pressure. You never know if that guy across the terminal is a hiring manager at a major/freight/corporate outfit you'd like to work for. He may be thinking, "Man, that (whatever) pilot is sharp, looks professional and might be the type of guy our company is looking for, let me go drop my business card off with him" or "Man, what a slob."
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I agree Doug, but as a great man once said: "I make this look GOOD!" :cool: :bandit:


:D

If the guy looks like a slob in the leather, chances are, he's going to look like a slob in the blazer.

It's also all about how you carry yourself, how you take care of yourself, how you present yourself.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

:rawk:
 
OK... I'd like to add a bit of perspective here.

40 years ago airline travel was completely different than what it is today. The people who traveled via airplanes actually dressed up themselves. In addition to that the "Airline Pilot" of yesteryear had a very different working lifestyle than the average pilot of today.

What I mean is this... Airline travel back in the day consisted of longer transcon or transoceanic flights where the pilots had minimal exposure in the airline terminal with the general public as well as minimal exposure to the outside elements due to only doing 1 or 2 flights a day.

Dressing for that line of work allowed them to wear a uniform that was more "professional" vs. more practical and it fell in line with what the passengers were wearing at the time. In addition... airline travel was so new and different that they had to portray an image of professionalism in order to set the general public at ease with their decision to fly instead of drive, take the train, take a cruise, etc...

Times in this industry... like the public's perceptions and opinions... have changed over the years. No longer are the days where the average commercial airline pilot can go to work without hauling a suitcase filled with 5 days worth of clothes and a brain bag with Jeps for over 200 domestic and foreign airports.

In addition to that... the significant change in this industry that occurred when the "Regional" pilots began flying mainline routes, and doing it with more frequecy in smaller aircraft, caused a paradigm shift in the role of your "typical" airline pilot of today. Turboprops and RJ's that are on hardstands... that need Pre-flights done on them multiple times a day in the elements that include freezing rain, howling winds, snow and ice on the ramp, dripping fluids, etc. The professional "suit" just doesn't cut it in conditions like that.

Adding again to the discussion that public opinion and perception have changed significantly over the years... proven by the fact that on any given day of the week you can camp out in any airline hub terminal and the grand majority of today's airline passengers are wearing shorts, t-shirts, flip-flops, sandals, tennis shoes, jeans, and a myriad of other comfy-casual clothes. Being a member of the local "President's Club" I can attest to the fact that majority of the high-milers and high $ travelers aren't dressed that much different.

The times have changed... public opinion has changed... the job has changed... what we wear on a daily basis has changed... the approved uniform of today has no bearing on our worth in the industry or our professionalism as pilots. Just as the clothes that the general public chooses to wear on their flight today have no bearing on their net worth. We need to be careful when we start judgeing folks by the clothes on their backs... it can get messy real fast.

Bob
 
As av8sean said, "Any excuse you make to the contrary is just rationalization to make yourself feel ok for looking less professional for the sake of your own comfort/ego."
 
PCL_128 said:
As av8sean said, "Any excuse you make to the contrary is just rationalization to make yourself feel ok for looking less professional for the sake of your own comfort/ego."
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So you don't consider any of his points valid . . . It seems that you have a closed mind. Come on, tell me that it doesn't make just a little sense.


If you feel so strongly, then I believe that you should get ALPA to not only discourage, but prohibit the membership from wearing the degraded uniform.
 
bumblebee said:
So you don't consider any of his points valid . . . It seems that you have a closed mind.
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Yeah, pretty much. :D

If you feel so strongly, then I believe that you should get ALPA to not only discourage, but prohibit the membership from wearing the degraded uniform.
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ALPA has more important things to worry about. USAPA, open skies, lawsuits, flight/duty times, etc... ALPA shouldn't have to tell the membership to look professional.
 
PCL_128 said:
Being an air line pilot is a crazy amalgamation of blue and white collar. Most people would consider our actual job itself to be "white collar," because we are supervisors, highly trained and educated, hold very high levels of responsibility, etc..., however, we are also clearly a labor group. We've handled this over the years by going at unionization at a different angle.

In order to uphold our very high levels of pay and QOL, it's necessary for us to maintain a white-collar image. This means that we have to deal with management and the government on their level. This is why you see ALPA reps wearing business suits when dealing with management and politicians. It's simply part of playing the game. Likewise, appearing as a consummate professional while on the job is also part of the game. This is why the ALPA Code of Ethics spends so much time talking about our behavior on the job, and not just our behavior in the union hall, so to speak. Our outward image to the flying public, to the media, and to management is extremely important in trying to play this balancing act of blue/white collar.
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PCL_128 said:
I've spoken to Ray personally, and his biggest issue is the degradation of the professional image. I think the biggest point is his comment that it is possibly management's "intent" to purposefully degrade our professional image in an attempt to further erode our position in this industry.

Ray is surmising (and I happen to agree) that management is engaged in a long-term concerted effort to weaken our professional image in order to further degrade our profession. While we're talking about what's "comfortable," management is thinking about how to weaken our position by destroying our image. As usual, we're thinking small potatoes and management's strategy is going right over our heads.
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I'm sorry . . is it just me or am I reasonable in having trouble reconciling these posts???:confused:
PCL_128 said:
ALPA has more important things to worry about. USAPA, open skies, lawsuits, flight/duty times, etc... ALPA shouldn't have to tell the membership to look professional.
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If it's key to the negotiating position, it would be a simple matter for ALPA to run their shop and forbid the use of leather jackets.

Additionally, if you look who has the best deal out there right now, that would be the SWA pilots . . .I think they're in leather, they're happy and the best compensated.

Maybe if we don't get steeped in tradition beyond the point of being open minded to evolution, we can come up with creative solutions, rather than holding on to a melting iceberg.
 
PCL_128 said:
As av8sean said, "Any excuse you make to the contrary is just rationalization to make yourself feel ok for looking less professional for the sake of your own comfort/ego."
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You PROVE to me the leather jacket makes me look any LESS professional than you in your blazer, and we'll talk..

Until then, pound sand.. ;)

Maybe you kiddos who feel you need a blazer are like the guys who feel they need a Porsche to feel good about themselves.. Projecting a false "image" of professionalism based on the all mighty blazer..

I can promise you, after coming out of a RAIN/SNOW storm after a pre/post flight walking through the terminal, my leather jacket will look 10 times more professional than a soggy wet blazer.. :)
 
bumblebee said:
If it's key to the negotiating position, it would be a simple matter for ALPA to run their shop and forbid the use of leather jackets.
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Negotiating a certain uniform into a contract requires negotiating capital. If the company wants leather in the uniform standards, then prohibiting it would require spending negotiating capital. As important as I think a professional uniform is, I wouldn't advocate burning through negotiating leverage for contractual standards that prohibit leather jackets. That negotiating capital could be used on pay and QOL items. Everything in a CBA comes with a price.
 
PCL_128 said:
Actually, I think Velo wears a leather jacket. Probably the one thing we disagree on. :)
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Haha.. :)

PCL_128, Just curious how you feel about working at AirTran with your very strong Alpa/Scab convictions when they are the remnants of ValueJet which is still seen by some of the old timers as "ScabJet." Very similar to how todays guys feel about GoJet..

I personally don't see anything wrong with AirTran and have a bunch of buddies over there.. I have also considered maybe trying go there one day, as they have a base in the region of the country I'd like to live, but my pops as an Eastern guy can't stand AirTran... Which, he may still be holding on too hard to the whole Eastern thing, but that's most definitely his right.. Just like a Trans States guy would no doubt feel about GoJets..
 
Tram said:
PCL_128, Just curious how you feel about working at AirTran with your very strong Alpa/Scab convictions when they are the remnants of ValueJet which is still seen by some of the old timers as "ScabJet."

I personally don't see anything wrong with AirTran and have a bunch of buddies over there.. I have also considered maybe trying go there one day, as they have a base in the region of the country I'd like to live, but my pops as an Eastern guy can't stand AirTran...
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You'd actually be surprised. I've flown with more rEAL pilots here than SCABs. At last count, we had less than 20 SCABs out of 1600 pilots. They're pretty much all gone now. Definitely not the same airline as ValueJet. Lots of the guys that your dad walked the picket line with are Captains here. He might want to rethink his aversion to AirTran.
 
PCL_128 said:
Negotiating a certain uniform into a contract requires negotiating capital. If the company wants leather in the uniform standards, then prohibiting it would require spending negotiating capital. As important as I think a professional uniform is, I wouldn't advocate burning through negotiating leverage for contractual standards that prohibit leather jackets. That negotiating capital could be used on pay and QOL items. Everything in a CBA comes with a price.
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OK . . . so where is the letter from the union to its members, telling them not to wear the leather, and that to do so would seriously undermine negotiations. I get the ALPA magazine, and have never seen any such assertion. Please, send me a link. Thank you.
 
PCL_128 said:
You'd actually be surprised. I've flown with more rEAL pilots here than SCABs. At last count, we had less than 20 SCABs out of 1600 pilots. They're pretty much all gone now. Definitely not the same airline as ValueJet. Lots of the guys that your dad walked the picket line with are Captains here. He might want to rethink his aversion to AirTran.
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Man, that is really good to hear! I don't see any issues with them.. The ONLY issue I'd have with trying to get on at AirTran would be how my pops would feel about it..

I'll have to talk to him.. :)

I didn't really wanna ask, because it seemed kinda... pointed.. I didn't mean it to be that way.. I just honestly wanted to know..

Thanks for the answer...
 
bumblebee said:
OK . . . so where is the letter from the union to its members, telling them not to wear the leather, and that to do so would seriously undermine negotiations. I get the ALPA magazine, and have never seen any such allegation. Please, send me a link. Thank you.
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Not sure of the exact issue, but an issue of the magazine near the beginning of the year contained an article from VP-Admin Bill Couette about the importance of a professional appearance, and I think he might have mentioned the blazer. Can't remember for sure.

But that's not really the point. ALPA doesn't go around telling their members what to do. Pilots are supposed to be professionals that are able to self-police themselves. I honestly don't know what Prater and others think about the leather. Maybe he's a fan of it. I doubt it, but you never know. I don't speak for ALPA, I speak for my own opinion.
 
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