What's the deal with anti-Leather jackets?

[Hacker15e]

F15E?

Yes indeed. What I fly currently and have most of my time in.

 

[directenterenter]

speaking of ALPA stickers, would a proby get skinned alive for slappin a sticker on one of his case's...is that something that CA's can do, no-no for the short man on the #### stick? (less than a year, still on probation)

 

[directenterenter]

Yes indeed. What I fly currently and have most of my time in.

my dream...

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think that's a very narrow minded approach to 'professional'. I operate in a professional environment, too. What I wear matters a great deal not only to the people who work for me, but the general public that we all work for. USAF General officers don't seem to have a problem with wearing their leather jackets with their blues uniforms at the Pentagon and on The Hill in DC. If it's professional enough to rub elbows with Senators and Congressmen...

Besides, I don't think that the general public sees the leather jacket as unprofessional in any way. In fact, I think the fact that they associate the jacket with military flyers, and in turn hold military flyers in particularly high regard, means that they see airline pilots wearing it in similar regard.

PCL, I understand and appreciate people who are trying to uphold the professional image of airline pilots -- I'm in total agreement. The specific things that are attacked in the name of 'professionalism', however, often perplex me.

The BIGGEST thing that I think hurts the airline pilots' professional image to the general public is that they have an identity complex -- they want to be both white collar and blue collar at the same time. They want to belong to an 'elite' club and be paid/regarded as such, but also want to group themselves in with 'labor'.

I'm not saying that's wrong...you don't have to explain to me why that is that way.

I'm saying that as an outsider looking in, that is really a confusing contrast, and Joe Public does not understand the complexities that drive those matters. It's tough to reconcile a suit-wearing professional with the actions of a person they expect to see picketing outside a steel mill somewhere.

If airline pilots are concerned about their professional image to the public, leather jackets are miniscule potatoes compared to the image problem presented by picketing pilots.

My best advice to you on trying to understand the admittedly complex situation is to read three different works, all by the same professor: "The Air Line Pilots, A Study in Elite Unionization," "Flying the Line, Vol I," and "Flying the Line, Vol II."

Being an air line pilot is a crazy amalgamation of blue and white collar. Most people would consider our actual job itself to be "white collar," because we are supervisors, highly trained and educated, hold very high levels of responsibility, etc..., however, we are also clearly a labor group. We've handled this over the years by going at unionization at a different angle. We don't engage in the "thuggery" tactics that many other unions have, we always follow the law in handling our negotiating strategies, and so on. In order to uphold our very high levels of pay and QOL, it's necessary for us to maintain a white-collar image. This means that we have to deal with management and the government on their level. This is why you see ALPA reps wearing business suits when dealing with management and politicians. It's simply part of playing the game. Likewise, appearing as a consummate professional while on the job is also part of the game. This is why the ALPA Code of Ethics spends so much time talking about our behavior on the job, and not just our behavior in the union hall, so to speak. Our outward image to the flying public, to the media, and to management is extremely important in trying to play this balancing act of blue/white collar.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

speaking of ALPA stickers, would a proby get skinned alive for slappin a sticker on one of his case's...is that something that CA's can do, no-no for the short man on the #### stick? (less than a year, still on probation)

Not at all. Intimidation or discipline based on union support or affiliation is blatantly illegal. No management is stupid enough to go after you because of a few union stickers. I was even a union volunteer while still on probation at Pinnacle.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well...

I don't have the pin yet..

Log in to the ALPA website and there's a link to request your pin. National will send one right out to you.

I would readily walk the picket line and I do have a "No Scabs" sticker on my overnight bag..

Now that's my kind of sticker!!! :yup:

 

[aloft]

We don't engage in the "thuggery" tactics that many other unions have,

You're obviously unfamiliar with the history of the scumsucking scumbag pilot group at Northwest Airlines.

That, or our definitions of "thuggery" differ. Radically.

 

[av8sean]

Please take a walk through the Delta terminal in Atlanta and compare a Delta pilot (99% always very sharply dressed, with a well-fit blazer and HAT) versus a regional pilot wearing a leather jacket (or no jacket at all) and no hat. There is no comparison. Any excuse you make to the contrary is just rationalization to make yourself feel ok for looking less professional for the sake of your own comfort/ego. And if you don't think the customers notice (especially business passengers who are used to making quick judgments of people based on their appearance and behavior), you're even more delusional.

 

[Hacker15e]

My best advice to you on trying to understand the admittedly complex situation is to read three different works, all by the same professor: "The Air Line Pilots, A Study in Elite Unionization," "Flying the Line, Vol I," and "Flying the Line, Vol II."

Actually, if you read my post closely, I said "you don't have to explain it to me." I've read FTL. No mystery to me -- I get it.

I was commenting on the perception that the general public has.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You're obviously unfamiliar with the history of the scumsucking scumbag pilot group at Northwest Airlines.

That, or our definitions of "thuggery" differ. Radically.

I was a pilot and a union rep at a Northwest regional for over five years. I'm quite familiar with the NWA pilot group, and "thuggery" isn't something I would associate with them.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Please take a walk through the Delta terminal in Atlanta and compare a Delta pilot (99% always very sharply dressed, with a well-fit blazer and HAT) versus a regional pilot wearing a leather jacket (or no jacket at all) and no hat. There is no comparison. Any excuse you make to the contrary is just rationalization to make yourself feel ok for looking less professional for the sake of your own comfort/ego. And if you don't think the customers notice (especially business passengers who are used to making quick judgments of people based on their appearance and behavior), you're even more delusional.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

 

[ready2fly]

Please take a walk through the Delta terminal in Atlanta and compare a Delta pilot (99% always very sharply dressed, with a well-fit blazer and HAT) versus a regional pilot wearing a leather jacket (or no jacket at all) and no hat. There is no comparison. Any excuse you make to the contrary is just rationalization to make yourself feel ok for looking less professional for the sake of your own comfort/ego. And if you don't think the customers notice (especially business passengers who are used to making quick judgments of people based on their appearance and behavior), you're even more delusional.

I agree. They do look sharp. Nobody on here has said anything to the contrary.

HOWEVER: Show me one passenger who has refused to fly because one or both pilots wore a leather jacket and I'll show you someone who needs serious therapy.

Passengers may comment "oh, that blazer looks nice/stuffy." or "That leather jacket looks sharp/cheesey".

That's fine. But, I'm 100% sure that, beyond that, they couldn't give a rat's butt what the pilots are wearing as long as (1) their ticket is cheap; and (2) they get there safe.

This discussion is border-line comdey. It has absolutely no legs when it comes to what is most important - and that is safety. I've asked for- and still not seen any- evidence showing that pilots who wear blazers are any safer than those who wear leather.


As I said before - for me - the blazer and overcoat are just too cumbersome. The leather jacket is MUCH more practical.... and in the end, that's what it is all about - practicality.

Don't like the leather jacket look? Cool. Don't wear one. But for those who do choose to wear one - that's our choice.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

HOWEVER: Show me one passenger who has refused to fly because one or both pilots wore a leather jacket and I'll show you someone who needs serious therapy.

It's not about whether a passenger will refuse to fly based on it. I don't know about you, but I don't just do the very minimum in my job that keeps people from going to another airline next time. I try to do my very best so that the passengers don't just come for the cheap ticket, they also think it's a professional operation. That's about uniform appearance, good customer service, a smooth flight, etc... It's all part of the complete package.

 

[kellwolf]

Honestly, I think that if someone really thinks management is out to degrade the professionalism of pilots by making leather jackets an option might be a little paranoid. I respect the work Miller does with ALPA, but that's just a few fries short of a Happy Meal right there. Now, if management said "Okay, we're going to polos and khakis," he might have a point. That would be a serious alteration of the pilot uniform. I don't see the jacket as doing that, especially since it's already got a foothold in aviation history in both air mail and military flying. The blazer came from ship captains first, and airlines kept it.

 

[tonyw]

(especially business passengers who are used to making quick judgments of people based on their appearance and behavior), you're even more delusional.

I used to sell advertising to people who would be in their offices in running shorts and a t-shirt. They were worth hundreds of millions of dollars on paper and they'd ink contracts for $100K in 20 minutes.

I've seen people dressed like crap drop lots of money real fast while people dressed in suits dilly dally and drop peanuts.

There are lots of things I use to qualify prospects. The way they are dressed is not one of them.

And both Steve and I have said that we used to be or are those "elite" fliers who generate most of the revenue for airlines. Neither of us give a rat's ass about how the pilots are dressed. Get me where I want to go safely and on time and I don't care if you're wearing a little boo peep outfit and your FO is dressed up as a sheep.

 

[Bumblebee]

I like this look . . .

 

[Ian_J]

You're missing a stripe there, cappy. Give me 20 for being out of uniform!

 

[ready2fly]

It's not about whether a passenger will refuse to fly based on it. I don't know about you, but I don't just do the very minimum in my job that keeps people from going to another airline next time. I try to do my very best so that the passengers don't just come for the cheap ticket, they also think it's a professional operation.

As do I. I just do it in a leather jacket during the winter. During the Fall & Spring, I wear the blazer.

That's about uniform appearance,

PCL - I think you're just going to have to agree to disagree with everyone who supports wearing the leather jacket. We get that you don't like it and you know some folks who support your view.

However, for every one person you can come up with that doesn't like the leather jacket, we could come up with three or four who either think it looks great or just doesn't care.

good customer service, a smooth flight, etc... It's all part of the complete package.

Agreed, and I'll add that it's about a pilots commitment to this profession, his or her preparation, his or her desire to be a better pilot.....but that has absolutely ZERO to do with what a person wears.

I worked in some of the biggest law firms in Tampa. I can tell you, from experience, that 99% of the best attornies in the state don't wear a blazer to work. Some don't even wear ties. The only time they wore the suit is in front of a judge, but when meeting with the folks who paid the salaries = the client (read: the passenger in our industry), they were just as professional in slacks and a shirt as they were in the blazer & tie in front of a judge.

What they wore made ZERO difference.

I think you're getting hung up on someones attire WAY too much...but, that's just me.

I feel no more or less professional in the blazer than I do in the leather. Thought I would, but I don't.

Like I said though - don't like it, don't wear one. Be happy with your choice and we'll be happy with ours.

BUT - if you want to go into the rhelm of a leather jacket degrading the industry or being unprofessional, then be prepared for what you're getting here.

You may feel that way, and that's fine - for you. But many, many of us don't - and that's fine for us.

 

[ready2fly]

Neither of us give a rat's ass about how the pilots are dressed. Get me where I want to go safely and on time and I don't care if you're wearing a little boo peep outfit and your FO is dressed up as a sheep.

That was mandatory at Eagle.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Now, if management said "Okay, we're going to polos and khakis," he might have a point. That would be a serious alteration of the pilot uniform. I don't see the jacket as doing that

It starts with the leather, then the hats become optional, then.... It's happening piece by piece. Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised to see khakis and a polo. Look at the Virgin America uniform. Look at the SkyBus uniform. They're tearing down our professional image, and some of us are going right along with it.