What's the deal with anti-Leather jackets?

PCL_128 said:
Correction: the letter was from a member of the MEC to management.
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Ahh, sorry...shoulda read it again before I posted. Reading comprehension never was my strong suit.

This is always an interesting argument for me to read. As a military pilot, and someone with a strong sense of aviation history, I really like the leather jacket. Interestingly, there are some military guys -- mostly fighter pilots -- who also strongly dislike the leather jacket, but I wear it anyway because of what it means to me.

Although I comprehend the argument that the jacket doesn't look professional enough, or that airline pilots want to avoid looking like military pilots, I don't really understand the argument.

Isn't the "professional" airline uniform rooted in a military uniform, anyway?

I'm having trouble comprehending why it was all right for Pan Am to make the uniform look like a ship's captain (e.g. either Navy or Merchant Marine -- a military uniform), yet the leather jacket is too military today.
 
I think a short sleeve shirt with a tie is much worse.
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HECK YEAH! Heres what I think they should do. When they wear those short sleeve shirts and that skinny pansy little tie, what they should do is take them off, and then take a huge steamy dump right in the palm of both hands and rub that all over their chests, because it would be less stupid looking than the short sleeve shirt and tie...
 
Tram said:
You know, after reading it again, I think the biggest push of Mr. Millers issue is the cost.. Then there are other reasons why they should not have leather jackets..
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I've spoken to Ray personally, and his biggest issue is the degradation of the professional image. The audacity of the company to expect someone that's taken a 40% paycut to pony up $300 bucks is certainly also an issue, however. I think the biggest point is his comment that it is possibly management's "intent" to purposefully degrade our professional image in an attempt to further erode our position in this industry. One of the biggest problems that pilots have always had is that we tend to think in one-dimensional terms when dealing with management, and they are thinking three-dimensionally. Basically, they're way ahead of us. They chip away at us piece by piece, and we don't even realize it's happening. When they asked for turboprop scope relief, pilots thought it wasn't any big deal and gave it up. Later, they came for 50-seat jet scope, and we still figured that it wasn't a big deal, just a small segment of the flying. Little did we realize that it was a concerted management effort to eventually outsource all of our flying to contractors. Ray is surmising (and I happen to agree) that management is engaged in a long-term concerted effort to weaken our professional image in order to further degrade our profession. While we're talking about what's "comfortable," management is thinking about how to weaken our position by destroying our image. As usual, we're thinking small potatoes and management's strategy is going right over our heads.

BTW.. Who cares what Ray Miller thinks? I wouldn't care if Captain Prater himself said "Leather jackets are baaaad..."
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Newbies would do well to listen to someone that's been around the block for a few decades. Don't just dismiss the analysis of an experienced air line Captain and union rep.
 
PCL_128 said:
Newbies would do well to listen to someone that's been around the block for a few decades. Don't just dismiss the analysis of an experienced air line Captain and union rep.
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Perhaps I did dismiss it, however, I have no idea who in the world Ray Miller is.. The fact he feels the "implementation of leather jackets" is an attempt by management to lower the professionalism of pilots is to me, absurd..

I am a 3rd generation airline pilot and have the analysis of 3 airline captains who have been around a few decades within a speed dial push away..

I'm actually speaking to one of them via AIM now.. He wears no cap and sports the leather jacket.. ;)
 
K... someone posted something about the "Friendly Southwest" and the "Classy international Legacy"... I understand this. I guess the international route guys should be ambassadors for the US to the internation community - fair enough... but who cares if RJ pilots and domestic pilots wear leather...

Also what about changing the color the under shirt.. I don't like Jet Blues blue shirts but... like maybe a grey under shirt... as long as we're talking about professional appearance, maybe something a little less "DOT Metro Bus Service" and a little more corporate is in order...
 
PCL_128 said:
Airline CEOs don't show up to work in a leather jacket. It's simply not appropriate in a professional environment. We shouldn't do it either.
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Well, if that is the logic we are going to use:

Airline CEO's also don't walk around in the snow, ice, sleet, rain, anti-ice, etc and do preflights.. Maybe I should stop doing those too.. ;)

You know, maybe if they paid me the same wages they paid themselves, I might consider wearing the hat and giving up the leather jacket, but for now, they can be the CEO's and I'll be the pilot..
 
PCL_128 said:
20+ year NWA Captain, former CA Rep in DTW, former MEC Vice-Chairman at NWA, and current ALPA Executive Vice President.
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You know that thing where you put you finger in your cheek and like pop it and then whirl your finger around in the air above your head when you are "impressed?" Imagine I just did that.. ;)

Nah, in all seriousness, that really doesn't mean much to me, and that I think is the difference between me and you..

You are impressed by, look up to, hold high esteem for, etc those who are STRONG Alpa members.. I'm glad there are guys out there who are hardcore into the union stuff, that is good.. I support those guys.. I am just not nor will I ever be - THAT guy..

I am more impressed by a guy who went through the EAL excitement and then got on at another major and lives his life as a normal pilot..
 
PCL_128 said:
Now that I'm back in the copilot's seat and it's winter time, that sounds good to me. :D
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Well man, I don't mind doing it.. I don't wear that silly blazer in weather like this.. :)

My leather keeps me nice and warm and dry.. :D
 
Tram said:
You know that thing where you put you finger in your cheek and like pop it and then whirl your finger around in the air above your head when you are "impressed?" Imagine I just did that.. ;)

Nah, in all seriousness, that really doesn't mean much to me, and that I think is the difference between me and you..

You are impressed by, look up to, hold high esteem for, etc those who are STRONG Alpa members.. I'm glad there are guys out there who are hardcore into the union stuff, that is good.. I support those guys.. I am just not nor will I ever be - THAT guy..

I am more impressed by a guy who went through the EAL excitement and then got on at another major and lives his life as a normal pilot..
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Normal pilots that simply fly their trips and go home don't improve their profession. I'd prefer to be someone that leaves this profession better than when I entered it, but to each his own.
 
PCL_128 said:
Normal pilots that simply fly their trips and go home don't improve their profession. I'd prefer to be someone that leaves this profession better than when I entered it, but to each his own.
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That's why I am thankful for the guys who are big into Alpa.. :)

I support you guys.. I'm just not him..

I like coming to work, flying my trips, going home and not thinking about work until I get back there again..

I work to live, not live to work...
 
Tram said:
That's why I am thankful for the guys who are big into Alpa.. :)

I support you guys.. I'm just not him..

I like coming to work, flying my trips, going home and not thinking about work until I get back there again..

I work to live, not live to work...
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Hey, as long as you wear the ALPA pin, slap an ALPA sticker on your bag, and walk the picket line when necessary, that's fine with me. Not everyone's born to do this kind of work.
 
PCL_128 said:
Hey, as long as you wear the ALPA pin, slap an ALPA sticker on your bag, and walk the picket line when necessary, that's fine with me. Not everyone's born to do this kind of work.
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Well...

I don't have the pin yet..
I don't have any ALPA stickers on my bag (it's the nice nylon one)..

But..

I would readily walk the picket line and I do have a "No Scabs" sticker on my overnight bag.. :)

I am all for Alpa, I'm all for backing the MEC and all that jazz.. I just have zero desire to do that line of work and therefore, would be a detriment rather than a help, in that line of work..
 
PCL_128 said:
It's not that it's "too military," it's that it's too casual. Airline CEOs don't show up to work in a leather jacket. It's simply not appropriate in a professional environment. We shouldn't do it either.
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I think that's a very narrow minded approach to 'professional'. I operate in a professional environment, too. What I wear matters a great deal not only to the people who work for me, but the general public that we all work for. USAF General officers don't seem to have a problem with wearing their leather jackets with their blues uniforms at the Pentagon and on The Hill in DC. If it's professional enough to rub elbows with Senators and Congressmen...

Besides, I don't think that the general public sees the leather jacket as unprofessional in any way. In fact, I think the fact that they associate the jacket with military flyers, and in turn hold military flyers in particularly high regard, means that they see airline pilots wearing it in similar regard.

PCL, I understand and appreciate people who are trying to uphold the professional image of airline pilots -- I'm in total agreement. The specific things that are attacked in the name of 'professionalism', however, often perplex me.

The BIGGEST thing that I think hurts the airline pilots' professional image to the general public is that they have an identity complex -- they want to be both white collar and blue collar at the same time. They want to belong to an 'elite' club and be paid/regarded as such, but also want to group themselves in with 'labor'.

I'm not saying that's wrong...you don't have to explain to me why that is that way.

I'm saying that as an outsider looking in, that is really a confusing contrast, and Joe Public does not understand the complexities that drive those matters. It's tough to reconcile a suit-wearing professional with the actions of a person they expect to see picketing outside a steel mill somewhere.

If airline pilots are concerned about their professional image to the public, leather jackets are miniscule potatoes compared to the image problem presented by picketing pilots.
 
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