The urinating match.... does it continue?

[Foxcow]

Well, you're looking at a category of airlines. The problem is that it doesn't tell you the whole story. Here's what led up to GoJet in it's current state...

TransStates Airlines used to connect for TWA in St. Louis. TWA was bought by American Airlines and TransStates now connects for AA. TranStates pilots want a better contract, with more pay, better QOL, etc...right? Well, TransStates management wanted to implement a bigger airplane into their company and didn't want to just start throwing out all that much more money. They not only would have to give their current pilots a raise, they would likely have to pay them even more to fly the bigger airplane. So, they created a whole new airline to get around all that. They started offering pilots a job at GoJet in TransStates interviews. The unionization occurred later on...

We also fly for UA and US. As a result of gross stupidity and lack of foresight, we furloughed while g0jet was started. I think our management furloughed 54 guys. The g0jet thing also sparked a mass exodus of qualified pilots to better airlines. Of the pilots that were furloughed, only 4 came back. We also lost some United flying as a result.

 

[Foxcow]

Ok, now i'm a bit confused. According to airlinepilotcentral.com, GoJets pilots organized with the teamsters in 2005 and the wages seem to be comparabe, if not better than most regionals (23/hr 1st year). Is the animosity just based on how the airline originated? Is my source wrong?

Their pay is below industry average for the size aircraft. Until the 9/1/07, they were working without and a contract so management routinely got away with 6 day trips 1 day off (not in base). They just signed in a contract that is not worth the paper it is printed on. Even so, management is not going to honor it. When the airline started up, the people that went over there were looking for either a quick upgrade (still sitting in the right seat) and to be at the top of the seniority list somewhere (not worth a damn at a company like that). There is still much animosity (their conception and TSA furloughing). So much so that they have a separate parking lot as us, different crew rooms/mailboxes, and sometimes different hotels.

Some of them like to put on a front like g0jet is a great place to work but it simply isn't true. They know they are the most hated pilot group in the industry and no one likes to be hated. They can't even staff the flying that they have.

 

[Baronman]

At first, it seemed like the really low EMB rates might have been enough to convince the Blue dudes that it was time for a union, but they seemed to calm down quickly afterwards. Unfortunately, I think it will be a while before a majority of the Blue pilots realize how important union protection is.

It looks like management realized that the low EMB pay would affect their ability to recruit pilots...So about a year ago they raised it to $47/hr and they still get time and a half over 70hrs. That's why it "calmed down." Pay wise it beats CAL first year and is the same as DL for a 100 seat jet.

 

[surreal1221]

Ok, now i'm a bit confused. According to airlinepilotcentral.com, GoJets pilots organized with the teamsters in 2005 and the wages seem to be comparabe, if not better than most regionals (23/hr 1st year). Is the animosity just based on how the airline originated? Is my source wrong?

For the most part, I think so.

 

[Kingairer]

Most of this is venting... so you've been warned.


I'm really not sure what good unions do these days. I appreciate the job protection benefits, and the major grievance issue protection (such as pay rates and such) but on a day to day basis, they don't do crap around here. Our contract has been violated almost every day for the past year in so many ways. The company has chosen to "reinturpret" many parts of the contract as well as apply non negotiated processes to many instances. And you know what? So far the union hasn't done anything. We have so many grievances pending right now, that every prescheduled arbitration date is filled until May of next year. And even once stuff goes to arbitration and we win, the company signs a piece of paper that says they will stop doing what they are doing (but the paper also says that they admit no wrong doing by agreeing to stop what they were doing) wait 2 months and then start doing the same thing again knowing full well that it will take over a year to go to arbitration again.

As I said, unions are great for protecting your job, but as of now, at least hear, they suck at protecting your quality of life.

Sounds like your company and RP uses the same playbook.

 

[falconvalley]

We also fly for UA and US. As a result of gross stupidity and lack of foresight, we furloughed while g0jet was started. I think our management furloughed 54 guys. The g0jet thing also sparked a mass exodus of qualified pilots to better airlines. Of the pilots that were furloughed, only 4 came back. We also lost some United flying as a result.

I forgot about that! Don't you guys have to wear a couple different uniforms or something? Or is that just the Flight Attendents?

I remember talking to a handful of Trans guys while all that was playing out. I had just gotten my degree and was looking around for work. Not one Trans pilot recommended applying. I was pretty stunned. I had no idea at the time that all that was happening.

 

[Foxcow]

I forgot about that! Don't you guys have to wear a couple different uniforms or something? Or is that just the Flight Attendents?

I remember talking to a handful of Trans guys while all that was playing out. I had just gotten my degree and was looking around for work. Not one Trans pilot recommended applying. I was pretty stunned. I had no idea at the time that all that was happening.

Our hat ad jacket metal is the same for United and American trips while the Airways stuff is different. The flight attendants have different uniforms for all three I believe.

 

[Velocipede]

If i understand velo right, he doesnt have a grief with NON-UNION carriers that pay COMPETITIVE wages.

And you would be correct, sir.

 

[Velocipede]

I think Jetblue may work for some people. For one thing I believe JetBlue probably has a corporate culture that is somewhat pleasing.

The problem is not how it works for the employees, its what their payscale and lack of benefits does to the PILOTING PROFESSION as a whole. They dragged the payscales down by 1/3. Now, Virgin is dragging them down another 1/3 and Skybus another 1/3 below that. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where the profession is going. Only jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus apologists seem immune to the facts of life.

If you were to get into a large airline these days would you really want to fly with the guys that are at Northwest or US Air?

Who cares? Every airline has its 10% of biatches. 90% of all the guys you fly with will be fine. The whole point of spending $100K to get the licenses and experience you need to get to the majors is HAVING A DECENT WAGE when you get to your peak earning years. With protoscab outfits like jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus undermining the payrates, I'm afraid the young guys today will never recoup their investment and the crappy wages they put up with in the regionals.

The thing I disagree with the most that has been said on here is the comment about the Jetblue guys taking off their ALPA pins. Here are guys wanting to make a change at the airline for the better and you think they don't deserve to.

Maybe, but they are still guys who turned their backs on their brother Union members by taking work at a scumbag outfit who undermines our negotiated pay and benefits. They are no longer members in good standing. They should be enjoined from wearing identification jewelry in an attempt to fool other Union pilots into granting them Union negotiated benefits like jumpseat privileges. They basicly told ALPA to "pound sand" when they jumped ship. Now they want to wear their wings? You can't have it both ways.

Might as well toss the wings and embrace their protoscab existence. Because, after all, that's what they are....by choice.

 

[Velocipede]

Oh I have NO problems with guys personally at Jetblue. They have hooked me up MANY a time jumpseating and would never deny them a jumpseat....

After working at a nonunion carrier I am going to be VERY hardline about unions the rest of my career.

Segster,

With all due respect, these two comments are at odds with each other. You can't be a hardliner and give/accept jumpseat rides to/from jetBlue pilots. That would make you a hypocrite.

If you accept favors from them, you can hardly deny them reciprocation. And there's no such thing as parttime hardline.

You've got to make up your mind what you believe in and stand for it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

They are no longer members in good standing.

Actually, yes they are. As far as ALPA is concerned, they are still in good standing. They are no longer on "Active" status, but an "Inactive" member is still in good standing as long as he paid dues up until the time of leaving his ALPA carrier, and as long as he doesn't cross a picket line.

 

[mikecweb]

Who cares? Every airline has its 10% of biatches. 90% of all the guys you fly with will be fine. The whole point of spending $100K to get the licenses and experience you need to get to the majors is HAVING A DECENT WAGE when you get to your peak earning years. With protoscab outfits like jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus undermining the payrates, I'm afraid the young guys today will never recoup their investment and the crappy wages they put up with in the regionals.

Actually I'll have to disagree with you here. I didn't spend a ton of money just to make money. I did it to enjoy my career. Probably why I'll never end up at a major.

 

[surreal1221]

Wow wow wow.

So mike, are you saying then that you're going through this career so that you do not see a return on your investment? (Investment being time spent in school, training, and of course the financial committment.)

I can't think of anyone that isn't concerned about getting a return on their initial investment in their career. . .it's certainly not to only enjoy what you're doing, but also getting a return back on what you had to do to get to where you are.

With or without a major, seeking a good return on your initial investment should be right up at the top of anyone's career choice. Sales, education, medicine, aviation, no matter what industry.

 

[mikecweb]

Wow wow wow.

So mike, are you saying then that you're going through this career so that you do not see a return on your investment? (Investment being time spent in school, training, and of course the financial committment.)

I can't think of anyone that isn't concerned about getting a return on their initial investment in their career. . .it's certainly not to only enjoy what you're doing, but also getting a return back on what you had to do to get to where you are.

With or without a major, seeking a good return on your initial investment should be right up at the top of anyone's career choice. Sales, education, medicine, aviation, no matter what industry.

No I'm going through this career trying to enjoy it as much as possible and not become bitter like so many are. I want to get a return on my investment but it is not my number one priority. I could be rich as heck and be miserable.

 

[surreal1221]

It doesn't have anything to do with being rich. But I'm glad to see that you want to get a return on your investment.

 

[kellwolf]

And you would be correct, sir.

Wait a minute. I thought you were denying jumpseats based on the arguement that they were non-union pilots using a union negotiated benefit. Are you now saying bthat as long as they're non-union AND pay okay, it's fine? I'm a little lost.

I'm really not sure what good unions do these days. I appreciate the job protection benefits, and the major grievance issue protection (such as pay rates and such) but on a day to day basis, they don't do crap around here. Our contract has been violated almost every day for the past year in so many ways. The company has chosen to "reinturpret" many parts of the contract as well as apply non negotiated processes to many instances. And you know what? So far the union hasn't done anything. We have so many grievances pending right now, that every prescheduled arbitration date is filled until May of next year. And even once stuff goes to arbitration and we win, the company signs a piece of paper that says they will stop doing what they are doing (but the paper also says that they admit no wrong doing by agreeing to stop what they were doing) wait 2 months and then start doing the same thing again knowing full well that it will take over a year to go to arbitration again.

Sounds like your MEC leadership is sitting on their laurels to me. We have that stuff over here, the difference is we're in contract negotiations. Guess what a lot of their "re-interpretations" have meant? Changing the status quo. RLA says that's a no-no during Section 6 negotiations, so that's a fast track greivance to a cooling off period. It's been filed, but I don't know if it's being heard yet. Same with the scope greivance on Colgan. Without our union, we'd be rolling over and getting abused even more. As it is, we have a conduit to at least try to uphold the agreement. If management is constantly violating the agreement, then the penalties for violating it need to go up. Hit 'em where it hurts: financially. Miss tripped unfairly? Don't just settle for having it removed from your record, tell them you want 150% for the trip, too.

 

[aviatormar]

Education was mentioned. It goes both ways. If you come off as stand-offish, you're not gonna get a very good reception, ie Red Sox vs. Yankees fans.

What are you trying to say about the red sox?

 

[DE727UPS]

"Are you now saying bthat as long as they're non-union AND pay okay, it's fine? I'm a little lost."

You can look at his argument and see the weakness. If Jetblue goes union tomorrow without a raise, Velo now says nothing bad about the place? All is well? Jetblue guys get to ride with him?

But if they are non-union but pay okay, he's got no problem with it?

Dang. Some holes in that one...

 

[Velocipede]

If Jetblue goes union tomorrow without a raise, Velo now says nothing bad about the place? All is well? Jetblue guys get to ride with him?

But if they are non-union but pay okay, he's got no problem with it?

Dang. Some holes in that one...

Not really, if you understand the theory of Unionism and how wages/benefits get raised at Union companies.

In the auto industry, they used to use "pattern bargaining". Only one company per contract cycle would negotiate an auto worker contract and the rest of the companies would match. Saved a lot of time and effort in the labor negotiations process.

ALPA has consistently used single airline bargaining to "jack the house". In effect, the advances in contracts realized at one carrier were utilized as a baseline for the next negotiation. That's why the 1999 high water mark came after Delta got 1% more than the United guys got after their company bribed them to acquiesce to the first USAir/UAL merger attempt.

So, a non-Union company who paid, say, $300 an hour for narrowbody Captains would be welcomed on my jumpseat because they are de facto helping to "jack the house".

Conversely, a non-Union pilot who works for 30-60% less than my wage is setting a labor rate standard for my employer to emulate. And emulate it they do. Ask any USAir or United guy how the jetBlue narrowbody rate effected the Bankruptcy Court judge's ruling on pay.

Now, if jetBlue votes in a Union (any Union) they will become a partner in "jacking the house" to a decent level again. Granted, they may have a crappy contract with current rates for a couple cycles. AWA had one of the worst ALPA contracts FOR YEARS. However, they were always working to bring it up to legacy standards and finally succeeded. Each individual airline membership decides on what contractual benefits work best for them. But, Unions work together to improve the lot of all of us.

Slimeball, protoscab outfits like jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus rely on the greed of individual pilots who, for their own reasons, take work at cutrates in order to get a type rating, fly a bigger airplane or get a left seat earlier, regardless of the damage it does to the piloting profession in general. You go to work for one of these lowlife airlines and you're announcing to the industry that you only care about is YOURSELF.

 

[Baronman]

Personally I think Velocipede is giving JetBlue a little too much credit with respect to what happened to pilot's wages and the industry during the last few years.

JetBlue began operations back in 2000, just one year prior to what turned out to be major event in aviation history (Sept 11). I don't think it's in the business plan of most LCC to have very high pay rates right as operations begin. I'm guessing Southwest didn't have the high pay they enjoy today back in the 1980's. So, JetBlue begins service and a year later September 11 happens. The majors are financially crippled, Delta loosing billions a quarter and they go after the pilots pensions and pay.

So...at that point how many aircraft did JetBlue even have? They have about 125 now so a year into existence maybe 25 aircraft, and even if you look back to 2004 they still probably had under 100 aircraft. They are but a few years into existence, have just weathered the 9/11 storm, facing huge domestic competition and you think it's due to them that the majors, loosing billions are going after pilot pay? What was Airtran or Frontier paying at that point? They could have played just as large a part in the judge's decisions. And currently those two airlines seem to be most similar to JB in terms of the size of their operations and the slim profits (or lack thereof) in this high oil-fierce domestic market.

All I'm saying is...for some reason you think JB single handedly caused the pay cuts, but for some reason you never mention the losses the airlines were taking or the other lower paying ALPA carriers.