surreal1221
Well-Known Member
What is up with this notion that since CFIing isn't a career it is okay for the pay to suck?
WTF?
No.
WTF?
No.
RJ program now FREE to ATP instructors
- Thread starter Trip7
- Start date
Clocks
Well-Known Member
You are certainly free to decide not instruct for low pay. Go ahead and move your family across the country to hunt down an extra $5-10/hour in a job you'll keep for 3-6 months (typing those based on the "since CFIing isn't a career" concept). Totally your decision. If the sacrifices necessary to hunt down that mythical "high paying" CFI job is worth it to you, rock on. But remember to weigh that time and expense against the roughly $3000 you're holding out for (over a 5 month period). If it takes you a month to get hired, you're "high paying CFI job" is now paying $2400 more than ATP (over 5 months, 80 hours a month, at $22.50/hour). If it takes you a month to build up to a full schedule of students, your "high paying CFI job" is now paying only $1200 more than ATP. If you have to pay to get checked out in their airplanes, move to a new state, or buy a minute of multi time, you're now probably making less than you would have at ATP (under my above listed stipulations). Rough numbers, not perfect, and only an estimation. But $5-10/hour isn't exactly going to pay off the house on the short timeline we're talking about with the non-career CFIs.
Unless, like I asked earlier, there is some super secret list of CFI schools out there who will give you everything ATP offers and pay twice as much. Sure seems to be a lot of people who know someone who met a guy who owns a place who pays great. Not a lot of people sharing that special knowledge.
Do you also argue when UPS advertises they are the best box mover? I mean FedEx must be better in at least 1 aspect.
It's an ad. I wouldn't expect them to say "ATP is an okay place to work, but we're not the best in the following ways...."
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
And let it be known that Don speaks the truth always.
Chewie von Nubbins
New Member
Wouldn't this statement be considered an ad, or endorsement? Be very careful, someone will come along and try to counter act ads and endorsements.
I kid, I only kid. Lot's of respect for Don, especially the fact that he is more of a Hooters type of guy rather than a Starbucks type of guy. 
Trip7
Well-Known Member
While making $500 a month flying 50 hrs if not less....
People come instruct here to get out fast, not for the pay. Even still the pay is not horribly bad. I see the free RJ course as a $2000 pay increase. Instructors here last 3 months or less. That time frame is way too short to be chasing a high paying job across the country. And you do need multi time to get to a decent regional.
With a 99.9% pass rate and 300+ graduates its pretty safe to assume its helping
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I'll add one more:
And does that place stress that you leave as soon as possible during orientation. (3 months or less?) I believe MT's quote was "we hire you to get rid of you"
Academies like Comair for example are contracting you for 800 hrs before you leave. And they won't even let you touch a multi-engine aircraft until you're close to 800hrs dual given
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Dude that's totally out of line..... Period..... I am not saying all the guys coming out of ATP are great, nor am I saying that all those that come out of any other program are great. You are as good as YOU want to be period of 90 days or 2 years...... You to say that the product is a #### whole is just out of line and you need to watch what you are implying here...... Period you cannot say that this new RJ program for instructors who give 300 is a bad thing..... If you do you are just the typical person who could give a crap less about a company helping their employees out....... Period they are raising their own standard and adding a bonus......
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Come on now man..... You cant possibly argue that this isnt a good thing.... Period ATP is saying lets give our "students/CFI's" an increase chance of doing a great job when they make it.... We are helping them with learning flows and call outs..... People from your own regional are teaching the class and therefore they are learning things that will aid them in the process..... You are all about hating low timers and raising the bar so lets stop our bickering and just admit this is a big step for ATP...... You cant argue that period!
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
With a 99.9% pass rate and 300+ graduates its pretty safe to assume its helping
Correlation != causation.
If you agree that the ATP program must be helping since 99.9% of people passed, you'll also agree:
Reading causes cancer. Name someone with cancer who is illiterate.
The bear patrol must be working.
This rock keeps away lions.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
What you mean to say, I think, is: Correlation does not imply causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc.) However, it is obvious that a correlation is required to prove a causation. Also, to suggest that correlation always does not suggest causation is wrong too because a consistent correlation would suggest a causation.
Can we ever really determine the causation? Not definitely, no. But we'd have to have the data from both scenarios.
1) Data on candidates pass/fail ratio whom did not take the ATP RJ course.
2) Data on candidates pass/fail ratio whom did take the ATP RJ course.
The causal relationship is hard to nail down exactly because there are so many other variables in play -- the candidate pool may not have the same experience or motivation, they may not be held to the same standards (some may go to different airlines than other whom have a more or less demanding standard), plus many others.
We would need a definite causal relationship in order to make the statement that the ATP CRJ course definitely makes one better prepared and reduces the failure rate of a candidate going to a regional groundschool/sim class. This is not, however, said. There is no need to -- their own data stands on its own. 99.9% of those who have taken the CRJ course and have gone to a regional airline have done well. That is what they advertise, and we can take correlation you mentioned above and assume that it would help. It would be a good assumption though, I think.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Yes, I simplified it into mathematical terms. Correlation does not equal causation is equally acceptable (because in logic terms, imply and equal are basically synonymous as imply does not mean suggest)
Absolutely not. Imply, in logic terms, does not mean suggest. The use of the word suggest completely invalidates your argument. That's why I like to say "equal" because it will be understood with a bit more clarity.
You would actually need the same individuals in alternate universes to make the proper determination. Fact of the matter is, the original point was "Well, 99.9% of people pass, so it must be working!" is inherently false. The rock that keeps lions away being an alternate logical conclusion using the logic presented.
Which is exactly my point. Therefore, you cannot say that the ATP RJ course is what caused the 99.9% of people to pass
I think that it's probably a fairly valid assumption not because of the ATP RJ course itself, but simply exposure to systems of an airliner / pacing of the course.
GlenWimpy
Well-Known Member
LOL LOL LOL LOL
If , they were to bring the Concorde back , and , they were only going to pick 5 , high time , heavy Iron guys , from this website , and , ATP offered a one week Concorde prep course , these cats on this site would be wrecking their vettes , BMW's and Mercedes trying to get to JAX to take the course!
I'd be on top of the Concorde Sim with a movie camera as they were knocking down each other trying to get in the door !
Some would be in disguise , others would say , "on i just wanted to see the Sim "!:rotfl::rotfl:
If , they were to bring the Concorde back , and , they were only going to pick 5 , high time , heavy Iron guys , from this website , and , ATP offered a one week Concorde prep course , these cats on this site would be wrecking their vettes , BMW's and Mercedes trying to get to JAX to take the course!
I'd be on top of the Concorde Sim with a movie camera as they were knocking down each other trying to get in the door !
Some would be in disguise , others would say , "on i just wanted to see the Sim "!:rotfl::rotfl:
SIUav8er
Narcosis
I can not understand why so many people seem to hate ATP for offering CRJ training. I think it helps make the step up from GA to 121 a little less intimidating!
I am not planning on doing it, but I really dont see why some people on here seem to have a huge problem with the program....especially now that its free for the ATP instructors!
I am not planning on doing it, but I really dont see why some people on here seem to have a huge problem with the program....especially now that its free for the ATP instructors!
NJT916
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%.
So many attributes of the road to become an airline pilot are intimidating. Personally, I applaud ATP for rewarding their flight instructors with this new benefit. I'd be hard pressed not to take advantage of something that made the transition to an airline just that much easier, even if I'll get the same training again later down the road.
Why do we spend so much time reading a gouge for an airline interview? One big reason is because we are anxious about the interview components, and we want to get an edge up on the other applicants. Why do I want to take part in the RJ course? I want to do it because I am a bit anxious about what training is going to be like when I move to the regional's. I'm not sure if I'd want to fly with someone who wasn't just a little anxious about the move to an airline.
Just my two cents.
I also agree with the two prior posts. I'm sure RJ courses are helpful especially for those who are in transition from GA to 121. If one wants to spend the money to better prepare themselves, by all means go for it. I commend ATP for letting their instructors do it for free.
It really makes me laugh at all the nay sayers on these forums whining about ATP and the like being under-trained, not prepared for a job, yada yada. So now, the nay sayers want to knock guys who want to better prepare themselves for the real world by taking a RJ course. Maybe it's not worth the money, but in the very least, ground school won't be such a shock/transition from the GA world. In my opinion, we should be happy people are taking the extra step to prepare themselves for the real world.
Oh and one more thing, ATP may not be the best paying instructing job, but who cares. It's about getting the experience................QUIT YOUR WHINING
It really makes me laugh at all the nay sayers on these forums whining about ATP and the like being under-trained, not prepared for a job, yada yada. So now, the nay sayers want to knock guys who want to better prepare themselves for the real world by taking a RJ course. Maybe it's not worth the money, but in the very least, ground school won't be such a shock/transition from the GA world. In my opinion, we should be happy people are taking the extra step to prepare themselves for the real world.
Oh and one more thing, ATP may not be the best paying instructing job, but who cares. It's about getting the experience................QUIT YOUR WHINING
I think that because I've never been to ATP, don't work for a regional/ major, and yet am not new to aviation - I might be able to objectively point something out.
A major airline pilot has said CFI pay should probably be commensurate with experience. He didn't say ATP pilots were crap.
A regional captain said that airline ground school IS NOT a "shock to the system." This captain has been through an airline ground school and captain training - you have not. Other airline pilots confirm his claims.
CRJ course supporters are saying their CFIs are getting free training. Paying nothing for training, no matter how useless people might think it is, is not a bad thing.
CF - stop using logic. You're on a message board.
Carry on!
A major airline pilot has said CFI pay should probably be commensurate with experience. He didn't say ATP pilots were crap.
A regional captain said that airline ground school IS NOT a "shock to the system." This captain has been through an airline ground school and captain training - you have not. Other airline pilots confirm his claims.
CRJ course supporters are saying their CFIs are getting free training. Paying nothing for training, no matter how useless people might think it is, is not a bad thing.
CF - stop using logic. You're on a message board.
Carry on!
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Only complaint here is the fact a CFI is a CFI, and MEI is an MEI, and CFII is a CFII...... They had the same test for their ticket to instruct and both passed no matter if they went to an FBO or ATP or Ariben or whatever. His arguement is flawed. Stating that one got their ratings 90 days ago is not relevant and has nothing to do with how they should be paid. A new CFI is a new CFI if they got their ratings in 90 days or if they got their ratings in 3 years. Perhaps he needs to see the "NOW" and understand that many fly through these ratings, NOT just at ATP..... Its not a matter of ATP he appears to be upset with the intelligence level and how things have changed and how people can get to a point faster these days where when he did it that wasnt as easily obtainable. Just my 2 cents.....
carry on...
I don't agree. School, doesn't matter of course - knowledge and experience do.
Who would you pay more for: 777forever (no offense - you're just new) or Tgrayson/ Midlifeflyer?
I'd probably bay $10-$15 an hour for a 250-500 hour instructor. I'd probably pay $60/ hour for someone who was like the two guys above.
Exactly right. The keyword is "new." I don't believe Don was commenting on ATP specifically - he was referring to the "new" factor for ANY new CFI.