RJ program now FREE to ATP instructors

[Trip7]

"ATP will soon be bringing the best of their former instructors back on their time off to be D-Jet instructors, where they can log turbine PIC."

How can they do that on their time off? Don't most airline prohibit outside commercial flying for their pilots? Seems like I heard that somewhere....

Never thought of that, I'll get more details when I can.

 

[Trip7]

Email I just received:

Good news for flight instructors:

Tremendous hiring at the regional airlines has ATP instructors getting
jobs faster than ever. Thanks to the faster airline hiring, ATP is
offering new incentives to flight instructors who want to work with ATP:

- $500 start bonus
- Free Regional Jet Standards Certification Program ($5,995 value)
- Free Housing in Jacksonville during orientation
- $2,000 per month pay for instructors working in scheduling
- Option to go direct to any of 21 training centers nationwide, without
working in Jacksonville

These are just some of the new changes that make instructing at ATP
better than anywhere else. You get more multi-engine time faster and
airline placement assistance.

Check out the web site for full details at:
<http://www.atpflightschool.com/employment/cfi_jobs.html>

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

yeah, I got that email too.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

I don't see how this can be anything but a good thing.
It seems like one can make more at ATP as an instructor than first year at most regionals. I saw a guy in another forum post that he was consistently pulling in $3k/mo and 100 hrs a month. Good for them!

The naysayers will be here. Some already are. No matter how good something is...it is bad.

 

[Trip7]

I don't see how this can be anything but a good thing.
It seems like one can make more at ATP as an instructor than first year at most regionals. I saw a guy in another forum post that he was consistently pulling in $3k/mo and 100 hrs a month. Good for them!

The naysayers will be here. Some already are. No matter how good something is...it is bad.

:yeahthat:

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

"ATP will soon be bringing the best of their former instructors back on their time off to be D-Jet instructors, where they can log turbine PIC."

How can they do that on their time off? Don't most airline prohibit outside commercial flying for their pilots? Seems like I heard that somewhere....

I don't know. I know that commercial flying would count against their 100 hours a month and their current employeer wouldn't be too pleased if they timed out because they were flying some d-jet.

Perhaps they get paid for the ground school and sim instruction and do the "flying" for free? Except that would still be commercial flying since the FAA has long held that flight hours are compensatory.

So I dunno how one could do it part-time unless you worked for a corporate operator or something.

 

[SIUav8er]

ATP will soon be bringing the best of their former instructors back on their time off to be D-Jet instructors, where they can log turbine PIC.

who the heck is going to do that?? If im at an airline, theres no way in hell im gonna come back and instruct 85 hour private pilots in a jet. talk about risk!

 

[meyers9163]

who the heck is going to do that?? If im at an airline, theres no way in hell im gonna come back and instruct 85 hour private pilots in a jet. talk about risk!

A single engine jet is a risk in general no matter who is learning.... One bird on climb out and the engine is gone.... These are the next Doctor killers in general but lets just say in ATP mind they have something cooking up to get some of their former students back and we will see how it works....... Period though the RJ free to instructors is a good thing.... Def a plus for ATP!

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Alright, maybe I am naive, but here is how I see the RJ course. PLEASE...correct me if I am not seeing it correctly...but please make sense if you do.

What is the average for somebody being shown the door at the interview for busting a sim ride, or something that is specifically addressed in the RJ course?

Sure, it will all be covered in the ground school at the airline that you are interviewing at. I understand that. However, let's say that you REALLY want to go to work for ASA. Let's say that you go into ASA and screw up your interview and are shown the door. Although, if you would have taken the RJ course...even at $2500, wouldn't that $2500 have been wisely spent on the RJ course because you were much better prepared for the interview and you knocked it out of the ball park and got hired?

So, the question that I have is....how much will that RJ course decrease your percentage at washout rate in the interview process? Meaning, if you have a 60% chance of being shown the door when you walk in at ASA for an interview, and the RJ course will decrease that number down to 30%, wouldn't that be worth it? And, what would be a good percentage number to apply.....30% like I have above, or what would be a good number?

And, isn't that the whole idea for offering the RJ course?

I am not at ATP, nor have I ever been there. So this is not an endorsement by any means. However, I am just clearly trying to understand the situation a bit better.

 

[Trip7]

Alright, maybe I am naive, but here is how I see the RJ course. PLEASE...correct me if I am not seeing it correctly...but please make sense if you do.

What is the average for somebody being shown the door at the interview for busting a sim ride, or something that is specifically addressed in the RJ course?

Sure, it will all be covered in the ground school at the airline that you are interviewing at. I understand that. However, let's say that you REALLY want to go to work for ASA. Let's say that you go into ASA and screw up your interview and are shown the door. Although, if you would have taken the RJ course...even at $2500, wouldn't that $2500 have been wisely spent on the RJ course because you were much better prepared for the interview and you knocked it out of the ball park and got hired?

So, the question that I have is....how much will that RJ course decrease your percentage at washout rate in the interview process? Meaning, if you have a 60% chance of being shown the door when you walk in at ASA for an interview, and the RJ course will decrease that number down to 30%, wouldn't that be worth it? And, what would be a good percentage number to apply.....30% like I have above, or what would be a good number?

And, isn't that the whole idea for offering the RJ course?

I am not at ATP, nor have I ever been there. So this is not an endorsement by any means. However, I am just clearly trying to understand the situation a bit better.

Of the 300+ graduates of the RJ program only one has ever washed out of a 121 ground school. So you increase your chances to over 99.9% of getting through groundschool and sims if you successfully make it through the RJ course

 

[Seggy]

121 groundschool was like nursery school compared to college. Don't think it is all that difficult and that going to ATP will increase your chances of getting through the class. When you are sitting there, they want you to pass.

 

[BobDDuck]

Of the 300+ graduates of the RJ program only one has ever washed out of a 121 ground school. So you increase your chances to over 99.9% of getting through groundschool and sims if you successfully make it through the RJ course

You're assuming again. Just because people aren't washing out of ground school doesn't mean that the RJ program is helping. Somebody made the analogy the other day that since they put a pink flamingo in their yard they haven't had any Elephants attack their house.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

The RJ course is extra insurance for the airlines plain and simple. It is designed to be like IOE as I understand it. If an applicant can make it throught he RJ course, he/she is most likely to be able to make it through IOE, thus insuring the cost to the airlines of said training. So at worst, it will make YOU know you can make it through IOE AND prepare you better for it. At best, it will get you in the door slightly sooner than some other applicants who have never set foot in a jet simulator or received ground instruction in them.

Obviously, many a pilot makes it through to the regionals and IOE without this training, but I cannot think someone can make an argument that this training is detrimental to a regional pilots knowledge and experience. The fact that it is now free for ATP instructors is yet another reason to be an instructor for them. This increases the ability for ATP to retain good instruction.

Again...I cannot see how this announcement is anything but good.

 

[Seggy]

Sitting in a sim has nothing to do with getting you through IOE. An IOE checkairman wants to see that you can land the plane without putting the gear through the wing.

In the sim we never went about 160 knots. We did our sim training in and out of LGA. First LDA-A into LGA on IOE it was 180 knots to 5 mile final.

This course is worthless.

 

[SkyHawg]

The RJ course for me was a wakeup call. There was more too it than I expected and I know the airline groundschool is much harder. So my expectations of what it's going to take to pass airline ground school is higher.

 

[DE727UPS]

So many naysayers and so few koolaide drinkers...

What's this forum coming to?

I'm just here to keep it real to opposed to an ATP press statement email. "ATP is a better instructing job than anywhere else"

$1200/mo and flying 80 hours is $15/hr, plus a small productivity bonus. Do you get paid for ground time? Doesn't really sound like that great of a deal. Then, you get an RJ course that many RJ drivers are saying is useless, and placement programs that save, what, a couple hundred hours?

Hey, if that's what you're into, then more power to ya. I just hate to see big academy marketing stuff go unchecked. The day they have a link to jetcareers at their website or the day they talk about what they pay at the email where they say "ATP is a better instructing job that anywhere else", is the day ya'll will see me stop being a "naysayer". The day they think about what they are saying in their email about bringing back line pilots to instruct at ATP is the day I can quit reading this forum.

 

[Clocks]

The RJ course is extra insurance for the airlines plain and simple. It is designed to be like IOE as I understand it.

I would agree with a previous poster that the course is not designed to be like IOE (initial operating experience IIRC). IOE is flying the line (a real plane with real pax) with a check airman. The RJ course is designed like airline systems ground school + FTDs, which prepares you for everything except the full motion sims and IOE.

And to DE727, it's not great pay. It's also not a career (for many, and apparently "enough" that flight schools don't need to pay much). And for comparison my friend at a 141 university is paid $12/hour, $10/h for ground, and flies 50 hours a month in a 172. I'd say $1200 + 80 multi at ATP beats $600 + 50 single at "Non-big-academy schools". Not that teaching at a 141 school is the only option, but ATP is far from the bottom.

We could debate all day about what "good" CFIs "should" be paid (and we probably already agree). But they aren't, and there's really no indication that pay is going to be increasing for CFIs in the future. To be honest there's probably too many people like me who see it as a stepping stone, and would probably suck it up and do it for free if that's what it took to build time.

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

So many naysayers and so few koolaide drinkers...

What's this forum coming to?

I'm just here to keep it real to opposed to an ATP press statement email. "ATP is a better instructing job than anywhere else"

$1200/mo and flying 80 hours is $15/hr, plus a small productivity bonus. Do you get paid for ground time? Doesn't really sound like that great of a deal. Then, you get an RJ course that many RJ drivers are saying is useless, and placement programs that save, what, a couple hundred hours?

Hey, if that's what you're into, then more power to ya. I just hate to see big academy marketing stuff go unchecked. The day they have a link to jetcareers at their website or the day they talk about what they pay at the email where they say "ATP is a better instructing job that anywhere else", is the day ya'll will see me stop being a "naysayer".

Hey man, so I have an honest question for you. Let's say that you would be finishing up your CMEL/CSEL within a month or so, and you know that you are going to instruct so that you can follow Velo's advice and get to the regionals ASAP.......

Given the current climate of what is happening in the biz today, where would you go and instruct? Let's just say that you did your initial CFI at an FBO, and went to ATP to get the II and MEI add-ons...in hopes that you could get hired and instruct for them.

Would the reduced mins that they have between them and the airlines, the *free* (notice it has an asterik beside the free - like a damn rebate with tons of restrictions) again, free RJ course if you promise to instruct with them for 300 hours, a very good chance that a majority of your CFI time would be pure multi.....would this be a factor in your decision on where to go to instruct?

School me, Yoda

 

[Seggy]

In this current 'climate' of the industry (where you really don't need that much multi time) I would go instruct at a local mom and pop FBO and learn how to deal with a wide variety of individuals from retired women in their 60s to 16 year old kids who want to pursue a career in aviation.

Would give me a lot more background and variety of people to deal with.

 

[DE727UPS]

"We could debate all day about what "good" CFIs "should" be paid"

Actually, "good CFI's" weren't PPL's 90 days ago, so I think ATP pay is in line with the product they are paying for. My problem is only with the "ATP is a better instructing job than anywhere else" statement. I'd say being a free lancer anywhere you'd make twice what they pay at ATP. Plus, there are places that consider an experienced CFI worth upwards of second year RJ pay. Also, I hear the place up in Atwater is paying $25/hr, plus bonuses, as well.

ATP is what it is, and it works for many folks. But there is a limit to how sweet they ought to be making that koolaide taste...