Denying the Jumpseat

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I'm blown away that you think that $19 an hour first year and no union protection is top of the food chain at the regional level when Express Jet pays $23 an hour first year.

Heck, Pinnacle pays more than Skywest first year and it's on a plane that has nearly 40 seats left!

Now personally? I've got no problems with Skywest guys, but I just can't get my head wrapped around your argument. It just doesn't make any sense and I honestly think it's because you're so far removed from the regionals. All you know is what you read on flightinfo and take it as the word of God.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm blown away that you think that $19 an hour first year and no union protection is top of the food chain at the regional level when Express Jet pays $23 an hour first year.

Heck, Pinnacle pays more than Skywest first year and it's on a plane that has nearly 40 seats left!
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A couple of things....I'm making a *lot* more at $19 an hour at Skywest than I was at $24/hr elsewhere. As Mr. Taylor says and you're going to find out soon (well, maybe not, because you're not going to work at a company with crappy work rules), work rules are EVERYTHING.

If you want to nitpick, a 2nd year FO at SKW flying othe 50 seater makes more per hour than an Expressjet FO doing the same thing. So what? Doesn't mean you're undercutting me by flying for less than I am. Both companies contracts are very close the top of the food chain for regionals.

I don't 100% agree with Velocipede's use of the jumpseat as a weapon (I like Don's approach of allow access, then educate) but I really appreciate the fact that he recognizes the difference between Skywest and an airline who's pilots dramatically undercut the pay of their counterparts.
 
Ugh, I had a big reply typed up but then my browser crashed.

Suffice it to say that it's hard to even make this argument because every time I do somebody gets offended and says, "But they treat us alright here, $70,000 a year as a DC-9 captain is peachy!"

It's BS for everybody in the industry, and I think you guys are getting hung out to dry. Your company is making millions off your backs.
 
jtrain609 said:
Ugh, I had a big reply typed up but then my browser crashed.

Suffice it to say that it's hard to even make this argument because every time I do somebody gets offended and says, "But they treat us alright here, $70,000 a year as a DC-9 captain is peachy!"

It's BS for everybody in the industry, and I think you guys are getting hung out to dry. Your company is making millions off your backs.
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My browser is ####ing up too.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not really sure where you're getting it from, because you haven't worked in the airline industry for *any* carrier, but you're welcome to think whatever you want.

Things are far from perfect at Skywest, and there's a lot of people working for a change, which is a good thing. I do take offense, though, at the way you single out the company when the pay and working conditions are still much better than the vast majority of regionals out there.
 
doug_or said:
And (unless I missed it) you still haaven't said if you'd deny a skywest pilot the jumpseat......
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Not to be a defender of Velocipede but he has said on more than one occasion that Skywest pilots are welcome on his jumpseat. He has never been wishy-washy on this question.
 
Here's what I can't figure out (sorry if you guys wanted this to just die)

According to Velo, Jetblue, et al, as nonunion carriers, are responsible for bringing down the industry and are personally responsible for all that ails his pilot group.

The problem with that is Southwest has done a lot more to change the landscape of the old skool legacies, and what the job used to be, than Jetblue, et al. Southwest, however, is a union company and outside the scope of his scorn.

Also, let's say Jetblue elects a union tomorrow. Now, all the sudden they are forgiven as union brothers by Velo, even though, chances are, there would be little change in the work rules, pay, or job status under their first contract.

I'm a big supporter of unions. But I think Velo's kinda wacky in his quest to deny jumpseats to a few non-union airlines that he thinks impact his QOL while ignoring that the presence of SWA in AS markets has impacted his airline to a much greater extent.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm blown away that you think that $19 an hour first year and no union protection is top of the food chain at the regional level when Express Jet pays $23 an hour first year...Now personally? I've got no problems with Skywest guys, but I just can't get my head wrapped around your argument..
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Because starting pay isn't the issue. Its top of the pay scale that counts. Its career earnings, not probationary earnings. 365 days after you start, that's past. Its what you've got to look forward to for the next 35 years that counts. Only a wannabe focuses on 1st year pay.
 
Velocipede said:
Because starting pay isn't the issue. Its top of the pay scale that counts. Its career earnings, not probationary earnings. 365 days after you start, that's past. Its what you've got to look forward to for the next 35 years that counts. Only a wannabe focuses on 1st year pay.
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Then how can you knock a startups payscale?
 
DE727UPS said:
According to Velo, Jetblue, et al, as nonunion carriers, are responsible for bringing down the industry and are personally responsible for all that ails his pilot group.
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Its because they undercut our pay scale and benefits package, thus setting the bar lower and forcing our managment to match.

The problem with that is Southwest has done a lot more to change the landscape of the old skool legacies, and what the job used to be, than Jetblue, et al. Southwest, however, is a union company and outside the scope of his scorn.
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If you check the pay scales, you'll find Southwest is the HIGHEST PAYING NARROWBODY PASSENGER AIRLINE. Get it? Its about pay.

Also, let's say Jetblue elects a union tomorrow. Now, all the sudden they are forgiven as union brothers by Velo, even though, chances are, there would be little change in the work rules, pay, or job status under their first contract.
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But at least they'd be under contract and endeavoring to improve, this helping jack the house for everybody. That's how Unions work. Sometimes you can't get to the top right away. But with the help of other Company's Unions, you can better your own contract.

....ignoring that the presence of SWA in AS markets has impacted his airline to a much greater extent.
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Once again, its about pay, not airline competition. I'll repeat it for you...
SOUTHWEST IS THE HIGHEST PAYING NARROWBODY PASSENGER AIRLINE.

Get it?
 
"Get it?"

So, let's say SWA was a non-union airline but with their current pay, you'd bash them based on them being non-union and pay wouldn't matter?
 
DE727UPS said:
So, let's say SWA was a non-union airline but with their current pay, you'd bash them based on them being non-union and pay wouldn't matter?
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Who's bashing SWA? Are you being deliberately obtuse or trolling? Because your question is ridiculously hypothetical. SWA is a Union carrier. Period, end of story.
 
Velocipede said:
Because starting pay isn't the issue. Its top of the pay scale that counts. Its career earnings, not probationary earnings. 365 days after you start, that's past. Its what you've got to look forward to for the next 35 years that counts. Only a wannabe focuses on 1st year pay.
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Excellent! I see we're finally getting somewhere.

So Skywest pays a 12th year captain on their DC-9 sized aircraft $83 an hour, your company pays $154 for that DC-9 sized aircraft.

Not fair you say because a CRJ-900 (and soon to be a CRJ-1000) is only the size of maybe a DC-9-30? Let's go look at Redtail's rates...looks to me to be $124 an hour, and I've seen some pretty short DC-9's back up in Detroit.

Can anybody figure out what an American F-100 driver used to make at year 12? I can assure you it's more than any of the regionals are paying.

If you don't think a mainline company looks at Skywest's CRJ-900 rates and drools, you're naive. Because you know what they're drooling about? It's not about taking your pay rate down, it's about moving all the aircraft of that size out of YOUR company's hands and into the feeder's hands. Sure, Horizon might not be doing it to YOU, but it's sure as heck happening everywhere else.
 
jtrain609 said:
Excellent! I see we're finally getting somewhere.
.
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Except you insist on comparing apples to oranges. Sure a CRJ-900 is seating comparable to a DC-9-10. However, NO ONE (not even NWA) flies them anymore.

The current DC-9/737 at mainline carriers is the MD-80/90 and the 737NG. Both of those are more in the 140 seat range. And the overwhelming number of Skywest jets are not CRJ-900s, but 50 seaters. So, yeah, when you compare Skywest rates to other 50 seat operators, they're comparable.

You cannot compare a 90 seat CRJ with a modern 737 or MD-80/90. Your "DC-9" argument is 40 years out of date.
 
Velocipede said:
Except you insist on comparing apples to oranges. Sure a CRJ-900 is seating comparable to a DC-9-10. However, NO ONE (not even NWA) flies them anymore.

The current DC-9/737 at mainline carriers is the MD-80/90 and the 737NG. Both of those are more in the 140 seat range. And the overwhelming number of Skywest jets are not CRJ-900s, but 50 seaters. So, yeah, when you compare Skywest rates to other 50 seat operators, they're comparable.

You cannot compare a 90 seat CRJ with a modern 737 or MD-80/90. Your "DC-9" argument is 40 years out of date.
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"We'll draw the line in the sand at 50 seats. 50 seat jets belong at the regionals!'

"We'll draw the line at 70 seats. 70 seat jets can come from mainline and down to the regionals. But really, this is it!"

"We really meant 86 seat jets, it's ok if 86 seat jets are at the regionals. But no bigger!"

You see where I'm headed with this bossman? We're extending the payrates UP from Metro pay rates instead of DOWN from 737 pay rates.

It's a problem.
 
jtrain609 said:
You see where I'm headed with this bossman? We're extending the payrates UP from Metro pay rates instead of DOWN from 737 pay rates.

It's a problem.
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No kidding. What's your point? That ALPA has no balls? And that's news? Maybe that's why its time for INDIVIDUAL Captains to draw a line and stop enabling the scumbags lowering the wages/benefits bar by giving them free rides to work.
 
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