The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

kellwolf said:
Question is, Bob, are they a joke b/c the instructor prepped you for a specific examiner or are they a joke b/c you were prepared for anything?
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With an add-on... it should obviously be the latter of the two. You already have the knowledge and experience that you needed to get the initial rating... ie: Your II is just your Instrument checkride all over again from the other seat. Your CFI-SE... is just you teaching manuevers from the right seat. You already have the knowledge and skills to do those add-ons... and you have already completed your "initial" CFI... so everything is really just a quick review.

Bob
 
I swore to myself that I was going to stay out of this thread...but I snapped, and it's a slow Monday at work.

777 - I like you. I really do. I think you're a bright guy and I think you're very focused on what you want to do. Good on ya, as they say down in Oz. I truly do wish you luck.

That said, I'm going to pay very close attention here, and I might even log and keep copies of your posts in the last few months. Because if I ever hear you gripe, at all, about low pay, bad work rules, or low-time pilots, I'm gonna staple those posts to your front door and hire a fleet of banner-tow drivers to re-create them in the sky. (hyperbole, I know, but I think you get my point.)

You may choose to disagree with the older, more experienced folks in these threads. That's your prerogative, and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

But I would, as gently as I can, remind you to thank them for their advice and tutelage and move on, instead of evangelizing a set of contravening practices to people who have already confronted the same choices. It's perfectly acceptable to choose a different path than others, but it is perfectly rude to argue against one who is trying to help you. Choose your path, and do so graciously.
 
I would just also say its not just Forever777, although man you put yourself out there, its many. I think we all must remember what we are here for. We are all in the same industry and need to take advice and if we cant appreciate it and or disagree we must find a great way to counter it without making it into a throw down fight.

There are many ways to go to the same place. You just have to figure out what isbest for you. Perhaps ATP is best for you Forever and that's fine. However because someone states their thoguths on it and reasons why it wasnt well for them you need not attack them. Listen and move on.
 
The problem here fellas, is the thread wasn't started with the intent of showing different routes to an ultimate goal, it was started to say that a paticular way of training was responsible for the downward slide of our profession. In essence, placing the blame for the current state of affairs at the feet of those attending those "facilities".
 
You know, I have had a night to think of some of the stuff I wrote and this post and what is going on. Then Matt posted this...

http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?p=587573&posted=1#post587573

He is right...

First, I don't mean to be preachy. I am still new to aviation and have a TON to learn for the next 40+ years. However, there are some things that do concern me in aviation. I hope to be able to advocate these issues that do concern me. Didn't mean to attack anyone personally. I would hate for anyone to think that if they train at an academy, I wouldn't be able to get along with them. That is not the case.

Secondly, in the end, it really doesn't matter where you train. FOB, ATP, Ari-Ben, Skymates, IND, ERA, it does not matter. In my mind some options are better. Even though it is a cliché, attitude is everything, it is true. The individual and their attitude dictates their success.

Thirdly, it is time we raise the bar. In order to do that we need to be unified as pilots no matter if you are flying your own 152 in pattern during the weekends for fun or a 747 Captain at United. Demand the best.

The bottom line folks is...we need to look at the BIG PICTURE of things. There are things going on in aviation that we all need to take a look at, step back, and say, "is this right?"

If you don't think it is, go out and change things.
 
What do you propose Seggy? How do we unify a work group who is in competition with each other, kind of like Microsoft and Apple having a common contract.

Where is the money going to come from? All the profits cannot go to the pilots, there are plenty of other disciplines that make an airline work, all just as important as the pilot one.

I would love to see a natinoal minimum pay scale ENFORCED by ALPA, but honestly, who is going to decide what those numbers will be. If you think there is a divide among pilots now, just wait until Horizon's pay scale gets lowered because the ALPA national pay scale is lower than theirs.

My solution, more professionals on our side. Pilots make horrible politicians, we need the hired guns, lobbyists, etc to make the real changes, and they need to start at the regulation level (ie rest rules, duty times, hours flown, etc). Make the good changes there and stop trying to make everyone's contract the same.
 
Dugie8 said:
What do you propose Seggy? How do we unify a work group who is in competition with each other, kind of like Microsoft and Apple having a common contract.

Where is the money going to come from? All the profits cannot go to the pilots, there are plenty of other disciplines that make an airline work, all just as important as the pilot one.

I would love to see a natinoal minimum pay scale ENFORCED by ALPA, but honestly, who is going to decide what those numbers will be. If you think there is a divide among pilots now, just wait until Horizon's pay scale gets lowered because the ALPA national pay scale is lower than theirs.

My solution, more professionals on our side. Pilots make horrible politicians, we need the hired guns, lobbyists, etc to make the real changes, and they need to start at the regulation level (ie rest rules, duty times, hours flown, etc). Make the good changes there and stop trying to make everyone's contract the same.
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We unify everyone with education. Educate pilots when they start training on what the benefits of a unified pilot group will do. Explain to them what a scab is. Why whipsawing is bad, etc. ALPA NEEDS to do that.

You do have a good solution. Go to a MEC meeting, and offer that as a suggestion. If one of your union reps doesn't buy it, YOU have the opportunity to run, and dicate the direction you want your company and ALPA to take.
 
Seggy said:
We unify everyone with education. Educate pilots when they start training on what the benefits of a unified pilot group will do. Explain to them what a scab is. Why whipsawing is bad, etc. ALPA NEEDS to do that.

You do have a good solution. Go to a MEC meeting, and offer that as a suggestion. If one of your union reps doesn't buy it, YOU have the opportunity to run, and dicate the direction you want your company and ALPA to take.
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Who makes that decision on what benefits we get from a unified pilot group? I don't mean to "pick" or be such a devils advocate, but you are asking A LOT of type A (guess what the A stands for) people to agree on some pretty important issues, that really should be left to the individual airlines and those contracts (ie pay, QOL issues, etc). The big ones for me are safety and flight rules.

Education is great, but is it really fair for the airline industry to be "indoctrinating" student pilots as to what is the "right" way to accomplish being an airline pilot or be telling them what they should expect from that job. Airline flying isn't the only game in town, plenty of other ways to make a living flying. I really feel you may alienate a lot of people by "preaching" to them a set of beliefs before they have soloed.

I am a bit jaded though, after seeing what ComAir did to ASA for the sake of "growth" just further entrenched my doubts about the ability of this group of people to come together on any real issue.
 
Actually --->WE<--- have to education on the grassroots level, just like we're doing here.


There's got to be an effective way of getting inbetween people's blind, unquenchable desire to fly and educate them about what's "healthy" for the industry they're dying to get involved with an "unhealthy".

But the fire and brimstone method isn't effective because some people surf the internet in a deliberate frenzy to reinforce their preconceptions and if they find seasoned opinions from people already IN the industry, it sends them into a rage because they can be a little fragile.

The 'furry kitty cat' method doesn't work either.

It's gotta be something kind of inbetween.

We can't say, "YER AN IDIOT!" but then we can't say "Well, we have a difference of opinion".

There's got to be some sort of 'medium'.

There's a couple people in the thread that are going to have the "BuffaloPilot" epiphany when the veneer wears off and they find themselves on short call in a mangy hotel by the airport and tire of the new hires saying, "Dude! I'm living on my mom's couch! This is the sweetest job ever! Wanna pog?!"

I'd like to save them before they reach that point so they can make better career choices either IN or OUT of professional aviation, but there's a lot of talking on the internet and very little listening.
 
Dugie8 said:
Who makes that decision on what benefits we get from a unified pilot group? I don't mean to "pick" or be such a devils advocate, but you are asking A LOT of type A (guess what the A stands for) people to agree on some pretty important issues, that really should be left to the individual airlines and those contracts (ie pay, QOL issues, etc). The big ones for me are safety and flight rules.

Education is great, but is it really fair for the airline industry to be "indoctrinating" student pilots as to what is the "right" way to accomplish being an airline pilot or be telling them what they should expect from that job. Airline flying isn't the only game in town, plenty of other ways to make a living flying. I really feel you may alienate a lot of people by "preaching" to them a set of beliefs before they have soloed.

I am a bit jaded though, after seeing what ComAir did to ASA for the sake of "growth" just further entrenched my doubts about the ability of this group of people to come together on any real issue.
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The education is simple.

I think we all can agree that places like GoJets and crossing a picket line is bad, no?

Explain to them why you don't cross a picket line and what a whipsaw like GoJets is. This takes a lot of wind out of management's sails.

If you are jaded you can make a difference in the direction you want to see ALPA take. You have to sometimes let the past go, learn from the mistakes of the past, and move on to change the future.
 
Best post of the day:

"Wise man. Think about it deeper than the words. If a senior Captain of a well respected airline is telling a young man not to waste his time………I would listen"

At the risk of being moderated, 777 dude, I would sympathize with you a bit if you didn't come off as such a XXXXX! Your views are somewhat respectable, but your sarcasm and this whole "stupid pessimists" theme is pathetic.

"No man. #### no man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked sayin' something like that."
- Lawrence from Office Space


 
Seggy said:
Thirdly, it is time we raise the bar.
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While you sit on your high horse preaching something you obviously didn't practice, the rest of us have a choice to take a moral stand and stall our career another two years and watch people we finished our ratings with make captain before we see the cockpit of a jet, or we can do the logical thing. The thing any practical and pragmatic person would do, the thing you did, and get a job at a regional, build seniority and go.
 
777forever said:
Wouldn't you get offended if I say well at Skymates they teach you more things than you need to know and you're wasting time instructing when you could have been at a regional?.
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OH MY GOD 777 IT's a REGIONAL AIRLINE! I think my fly just broke.

You really are pathetic man, and people like YOU are the reason I have zero interest in ever going to the airlines.

Honestly, I bet you wear Top Gun T-shirts, leather jackets and aviators 24/7.
 
MikeOH58 said:
OH MY GOD 777 IT's a REGIONAL AIRLINE! I think my fly just broke.

You really are pathetic man, and people like YOU are the reason I have zero interest in ever going to the airlines.

Honestly, I bet you wear Top Gun T-shirts, leather jackets and aviators 24/7.
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Now now, i agree he's dug himself a hole but lets not make any personal "attacks" on him. Again lets keep in mind that he has yet to make it to the airlines, yes i know i havent either but there are excpetions, and he doesnt understand the business side of things yet. I dont think he really means a lot of the things he has said here. Rather a lot of the things stated come out in defense mode. Again ultimatly i'd assume he has higher goals then some regional. And perhaps you two will be in the same flight deck someday!

Educate the man lets not tear him a new one!
 
It just really pisses me off to hear my peers saying "wasting your time instructing when you could be at a regional". If this is the attitude of the 18-24 y/o's who in the next couple decades will be senior CA's at Legacy's, than maybe I should re-think my career. It really is pathetic. I don't know what your infacuation with regional airlines is? Especially at such a young age. You do understand that one day flying is just going to become "A JOB" for better or for worse. Why rush it?
 
MikeOH58 said:
It just really pisses me off to hear my peers saying "wasting your time instructing when you could be at a regional". If this is the attitude of the 18-24 y/o's who in the next couple decades will be senior CA's at Legacy's, than maybe I should re-think my career. It really is pathetic. I don't know what your infacuation with regional airlines is? Especially at such a young age. You do understand that one day flying is just going to become "A JOB" for better or for worse. Why rush it?
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I can see getting upset but heck I am only 23 years old myself. About to graduate and will be instructing this summer. However I look forward to instructing but at the same time if something were to open perhaps i'll look into it. Instructing is a great opportunity he should relish and perhaps will once he gets started. I didnt realize it was said it was a waste of time and I think if he were to read that again he'd realize he didnt mean that.

I odnt even know him personally I just think that we all type things in a fast nature to respond to things and that once he re reads that he'll realize it was a bad comment. Because yes I myself look forward but at the same time when I start to instruct I realize I am taking on a whole new level of responsiblity and its not a waste of time. If I feel that way I need to get out because I'm harming myself and putting a bad effort towards my students and risking their personal well being.

Its ok to be upset and what not but lets make sure we keep Jetcareers "Jetcareers" and not turn this into some other forum which we all know how much I love!
 
777forever said:
I don't think making 60k-70k captain pay as a 25 yr single guy is "not paying"
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I hate to break it to you but, 60-70K to Captain a regional jet is pathetic.

777forever said:
When a well paying and respected regional is experience slow growth due to lack of pilots, its a shortage.
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There is no such thing as a well paying and/or respected regional.

I never said you should quit flying and I respect your persistence. However, your view of the industry and this issue is very naive.
 
You guys....

I think 777forever isn't gonna change his attitude about such issues. We should all let him be. The guy doesn't want to listen to even the most experienced pilots in this forum. At this point I think everyone has tried hard enough to show him different points of view but he didn't/doesn't/won't listen so why not quit arguing with the guy?
I'm sure that any open minded/smart aspiring airline pilot reading this thread has understood and assimilated all of your inputs the important thing is that we can all grow from your experiences and opinions as long we keep an open mind for different points of view and loose the I know it all attitude

777forever...relax brow! You don't seem to be enjoying a part of your career/life that you will probably gonna miss one day!
Best of luck on your career man!
 
Seggy said:
I have been critical of 'Fast-Track' programs such as ATP and others that have I was one of those guys! Looking back, I didn't have that experience at that time to fly the Beech 1900!
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So basically your point is "I got mine, now nobody else should get theirs?"
 
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