The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

[kellwolf]

Question is, Bob, are they a joke b/c the instructor prepped you for a specific examiner or are they a joke b/c you were prepared for anything?

I could train anyone to pass a checkride with a certain examiner in GKY, but I wouldn't feel right about it.

 

[Trip7]

Uh, no. And I'll use one of your points to illustrate...



Ah ha! Now, if the regionals paid more and you go more for your investment, it would be different. I'm no economics guru, but I'm betting that if pay went up at regionals, you'd see a lot LESS people saying "It's not worth it to spend $60K for a $20K a year job." I know if I were training today, I'd have to SERIOUSLY think about it. As it is, my loan payments from 2005 are about HALF what guys today are paying. IMO, that is a major reason regionals are finding it hard to hire QUALIFIED applicants. If you ever decide to instruct instead of get on with a regional ASAP, you'll see a LOT of people that would love to fly for the airlines, but they can't justify the decrease in pay from what they're doing now.



So because I love to fly, I should be HAPPY how little I get paid? BS, and this reasoning is the main contributing factor to why pay is so sluggish at going up. Wasn't it Ornstein that said as long as he has applications on his desk, he's paying his pilots too much?



A healthy dose of optimism is good, but you gotta throw in some realism now and then. Would you still be willing to fly in 5 years after inflation has gone up, wages haven't kept up, you're still paying on those loans, and you're behind on rent and starving? But, hey. You love to fly, right?

Kells, why do you keep saying 20K a year job!!! That statement annoys the hell out of me for some reason. Thats the pessimist always looking at the dark side view im talking about. Does this pay at Republic sound like 20K a year to you?
its 23k yr 1, 30k yr 2, upgrade 65k yr 3, 67k yr 4, 69k yr 5 and even more than that if you get the E175! And even more if you fly more than minimum guarantee (Which you will!)

This sounds like 20k a year to me:

I think 20K a year would be something like 20K yr 1, 20k yr 2, upgrade, 20k yr 3, 20k yr 4, 20k yr 5, 20k yr 6, 20k yr 7...

777, I can't wait for a couple of years down the road, when the SJS has finally wore off, and you're slugging it out to try to pay your bills on regional FO pay flying transcontinental and international flights. I want to see your perspective then...right now, if there's a airline CEO reading these boards, they have to be the happiest person on the face of the earth reading some of the stuff you're typing!!!

See my above statement. I don't think several years down the road i'll be struggling at all. My cousin struggled his first 2 years as a MESA FO making 100k college and flight training loan payments. Now he's enjoying life as a Captain making over 65k a year. In fact over 70k I believe. Yes Stone Cold what a struggle. Another example of the pessimistic always looking at the dark side approach.

 

[Trip7]

I love it. A guy with a commercial certificate, no instructing experience, no 121 experience, no 135 experience, no fractional experience, no corporate experience, minimal flight experience, most likely minimal business experience, and so forth, telling everyone to wake up and stop being in denial.

You're going to be very popular both on this site and in the world of professional flying.

Welcome aboard!

Yes I know, I refuse to be uptight, complain about little stuff when things in the industry will only get better, and always look at the glass as half full not half empty. Yes, call me the Kit Darby of pilots. Just remember as things start getting better and pay begins to rise, get ready for me to post: I told ya so

 

[Stone Cold]

...See my above statement. I don't think several years down the road i'll be struggling at all. My cousin struggled his first 2 years as a MESA FO making 100k college and flight training loan payments. Now he's enjoying life as a Captain making over 65k a year. In fact over 70k I believe. Yes Stone Cold what a struggle. Another example of the pessimistic always looking at the dark side approach.

And your cousin is probably flying 70-90 seaters for that right? Yeah, something I'd really bew proud of!!! Our Lear Captains make more than that flying 7 people!!! And, flying charter (which sucks) we probably have a better QOL between the hotels and food,etc., and less flying than your cousin.

Just think, if your cousin wasn't contributing to Mesa, they could possibly be at a major, making much more than $70K! That was my point!

Adding, you just proved my point with your cousin story...read what I said (and you quoted) and what you said again...

 

[killbilly]

Yes I know, I refuse to be uptight, complain about little stuff when things in the industry will only get better, and always look at the glass as half full not half empty. Yes, call me the Kit Darby of pilots. Just remember as things start getting better and pay begins to rise, get ready for me to post: I told ya so

<sigh>

The glass is obviously too damn short....

 

[Champcar]

Why do people want to fly for the airlines? Cause they saw a jet at the airport and said that would be cool. If people want to do it then they are going to want to get there as fast as they can. Thats just how people work. No one set the "rules" on how one gets there so put your personal grudges aside and do your job.

If it bothers yall that much then get ALPA to change it....oh wait they wont. You all complain about pay and work and blah blah blah and yet i dont see your union do a thing. All I saw was your union taking those paycuts for you. Must be nice.

We all have different goals and values and no one has the right to question that. No matter if your a 121 Capt or a Student Pilot. You have a generation of people coming through the ranks that just wants to do things the fast way and only cares about what is best for themselves.

 

[Trip7]

Question is, Bob, are they a joke b/c the instructor prepped you for a specific examiner or are they a joke b/c you were prepared for anything?

I could train anyone to pass a checkride with a certain examiner in GKY, but I wouldn't feel right about it.

Why do you keep calling ATP's program a joke, then get offended when we say anything about FBOs. Wouldn't you get offended if I say well at Skymates they teach you more things than you need to know and you're wasting time instructing when you could have been at a regional?. As long as safety isn't compromised do what you have to do that is best for you in your training. Lets put the FBO vs. Academy thing to rest, its purely philosophical with too many variables to make a definite claim. Now in discussion of pilot shortage rage on. I still claim that anyone who says there is not a pilot shortage is either in denial or unintelligent. Yes that is coming from a commercial pilot with no instructing 121 or 135 experience. It is a fact, there is no philosophical element to it. If 9-11 didn't happen there would still be a shortage. And Comair might have been everybody's top regional.

 

[Trip7]

And your cousin is probably flying 70-90 seaters for that right? Yeah, something I'd really bew proud of!!! Our Lear Captains make more than that flying 7 people!!! And, flying charter (which sucks) we probably have a better QOL between the hotels and food,etc., and less flying than your cousin.

Just think, if your cousin wasn't contributing to Mesa, they could possibly be at a major, making much more than $70K! That was my point!

Adding, you just proved my point with your cousin story...read what I said (and you quoted) and what you said again...

nope! Wrong again. ERJ-145

 

[NJA_Capt]

Man you people are in Denial. Wake up and smell the coffee.

No. I’m a realist (and I don’t drink coffee).
I’ve been there, done that, and got the T shirt.

NJA Capt, the industry OVERALL has a shortage. Tell the guys in China or India there's not a shortage.

We’re not talking about China though are we? See GAMA statistics above.

The top paying companies such as UPS, FEDEX, and high paying corporate gigs like your company wouldn't have a shortage.

That proves my point. If there was a shortage, they(we) would be having trouble finding pilots too. There is only a shortage of pilots that will work for welfare wages.

It’s the lower end legacies and majors that the shortage will be hitting soon. The regionals have a full blown shortage. If they all raised pay right now there STILL would be a shortage.

The Kit Darbys of the world have been crying “pilot shortage” since since 1982. There are 59,000 more ATP rated pilots than there were in 1985. That is enough EXTRA pilots to replace every current member of ALPA.

So I don't understand the Pay and QOL as a reason that most are not starting to train.

That’s why those of us that have already walked the road are trying to pass the reality along.

I love flying, I would have entered this field no matter what anyone told me…

That’s what the pilot factories and airline management are relying on.
Ie….If they love it, they will come (even if we won’t pay them.... L )

…such as the Delta Captain telling my dad to spend the flying money on a convince store rather than flight training.

Wise man. Think about it deeper than the words. If a senior Captain of a well respected airline is telling a young man not to waste his time………I would listen


PS….
Imagination is a poor substitute for experience. (Havelock Ellis)

What one has not experienced one will never understand in print. (Isadora Duncan)

I learned a long time ago that I could try to reinvent the wheel or I could keep my eyes and ears open and learn from other artists' experiences. (Charles Harrington)

No-one's going to catch us. We've had dumb competitors in the past and they bleed. We're got more blood than they have. (Warren Buffett)

 

[Dugie8]

Why do people want to fly for the airlines? Cause they saw a jet at the airport and said that would be cool. If people want to do it then they are going to want to get there as fast as they can. Thats just how people work. No one set the "rules" on how one gets there so put your personal grudges aside and do your job.

If it bothers yall that much then get ALPA to change it....oh wait they wont. You all complain about pay and work and blah blah blah and yet i dont see your union do a thing. All I saw was your union taking those paycuts for you. Must be nice.

We all have different goals and values and no one has the right to question that. No matter if your a 121 Capt or a Student Pilot. You have a generation of people coming through the ranks that just wants to do things the fast way and only cares about what is best for themselves.

In some ways, this isn't a bad thing. Can you truly trust that someone else is going to look out for you? Have the generations that have come before "us" really done that good of a job in making this career what it could be? I would say in some aspects yes, and in some no, and in some very important areas HELL NO. So what is a person to do, roll over and put their future in someone elses hand(s) or do what they think will benefit them the most, playing by the rules laid out by those that came before them?

 

[TheAlchemist]

.

That’s why those of us that have already walked the road are trying to pass the reality along.

And I really appreciate that!

Thanks!

 

[bbjpilot]

Just my .02 I' am 19 and have a bad case of jet syndrome. I just do not believe i should be sitting right seat in a jet with people in the back. Just by attending an academy or Fbo and being told what airports to go to on cross countrys and what practice area to go to does not make you fit to be sitting right seat. I actually want to flight instruct and learn more about my flying abilities before I take on the responsibility of flying people around. From what I have read by some of the experienced aviators on here it is all about paying your dues. After all the Captain probably took a more traditional route to get to where he is. You would probably be more respected if you went the route a majority of the pilots took.


BTW I' am not taking sides just thought I would give my view :yar:

 

[Trip7]

No. I’m a realist (and I don’t drink coffee).
I’ve been there, done that, and got the T shirt.

We’re not talking about China though are we? See GAMA statistics above.

Nope we are talking about pilots jobs as a whole. The US is experiencing a shortage. The world as a whole is experiencing a huge shortage.

That proves my point. If there was a shortage, they(we) would be having trouble finding pilots too. There is only a shortage of pilots that will work for welfare wages.

Wrong, if every employer was not hiring and had stacks of resumes there's not a shortage. When a well paying and respected regional is experience slow growth due to lack of pilots, its a shortage.

The Kit Darbys of the world have been crying “pilot shortage” since since 1982. There are 59,000 more ATP rated pilots than there were in 1985. That is enough EXTRA pilots to replace every current member of ALPA.

How many more jobs are there compared to 1982? They been predicting this would happen since then. 9-11 only stalled it a couple years.

That’s why those of us that have already walked the road are trying to pass the reality along.

Time to cue the old man "Well back in my day voice"

That’s what the pilot factories and airline management are relying on.
Ie….If they love it, they will come (even if we won’t pay them.... L )

I don't think making 60k-70k captain pay as a 25 yr single guy is "not paying"

Wise man. Think about it deeper than the words. If a senior Captain of a well respected airline is telling a young man not to waste his time………I would listen

If you telling me to quit flying, I won't. I think you and him should quit if you can't take it anymore. I've seen too many pilots living happy, my cousin, my friend at Southwest who just bought a huge house, to be depressed by pessimists.


PS….
Imagination is a poor substitute for experience. (Havelock Ellis)

What one has not experienced one will never understand in print. (Isadora Duncan)

I learned a long time ago that I could try to reinvent the wheel or I could keep my eyes and ears open and learn from other artists' experiences. (Charles Harrington)

No-one's going to catch us. We've had dumb competitors in the past and they bleed. We're got more blood than they have. (Warren Buffett)

 

[kellwolf]

Why do you keep calling ATP's program a joke, then get offended when we say anything about FBOs.

Woah, there Sparky. Go ahead, go back, and show me where I called ATP's program a "joke." Go ahead, I'll wait...

Wouldn't you get offended if I say well at Skymates they teach you more things than you need to know and you're wasting time instructing when you could have been at a regional?.

That's the most asinine statement you've made to DATE. Why WOULDN'T you want to know more about flying than you need to? To me, it makes you a better pilot. Does it delay getting to a regional? Sure, but the knowledge you get might just save your ass one day. I don't think beating 50 guys to a seniority number is worth my life, thanks.

I still claim that anyone who says there is not a pilot shortage is either in denial or unintelligent. Yes that is coming from a commercial pilot with no instructing 121 or 135 experience. It is a fact, there is no philosophical element to it. If 9-11 didn't happen there would still be a shortage. And Comair might have been everybody's top regional.

Fine. I'm either in denial or unintelligent. There is a shortage of QUALIFIED (key word there) applicants. The 250 hour guy with wet ink on his commercial and next to no real world experience is NOT a qualified applicant for a regional. Anyone that says otherwise is either in denial or unintelligent. The reason I say $20K a year job.....I looked at my 1040. What's your reasoning?


Guys, this kid is a lost cause, and I'm done wasting my breath, time and blood pressure arguing valid points with someone who puts his fingers in his ears and drowns out everything more experienced pilots are saying b/c it isn't what he wants to hear. I made a statement in another thread that these people existed, and here's the proof. You guys have fun.

 

[derg]

Wow, I'm going to need a six pack of beer and a whole afternoon to even catch up with this one, sheesh!

There is no pilot shortage. However there IS a shortage of people willing to do the work for the current benefits level.

There are fewer people willing to do the work for the menu of pay and benefits.

Lots of guys in the military that'd love to fly a DC-9 for pre-2001 dollars, but when that DC-9 went to a regional at the regional wage/benefits structure and a lot of formerly high-paying major jobs took pay and benefit hits, why in the heck would they leave the USAF or a stable corporate job to fly for the passenger airlines?

They're not, so there's very little flow from what is traditionally at least 50% of the normal inflow of fresh meat into the industry.

Just because most of the movies out now suck and no one's going to the theater doesn't mean that there are a shortage of moviegoers. There is just a shortage of quality movies that'll attract a crowd.

For the right movie (pay/benefits) you're going to attract all of the moviegoers (pilots) you can seat (hire).

Think about it. Even if it rocks your perception. Be brave.

 

[meyers9163]

ATP-Approved Examiners
We work with the same Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) day in and day out—they are familiar with our standardized training procedures and checklists. This relationship ensures a low-stress checkride, for which you will be extremely well prepared.

This is the only thing that drives me crazy about ATP....... But that's me..... Also Forever777 STOP burning bridgest man! You got to go about this in another way dude!

 

[derg]

Also Forever777 STOP burning bridgest man! You got to go about this in another way dude!

Very true.

Aviation is a very small industry.

Remember the film "Six Degrees of Separation"? Well, in aviation, it's probably two. At most, three.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

ATP-Approved Examiners
We work with the same Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) day in and day out—they are familiar with our standardized training procedures and checklists. This relationship ensures a low-stress checkride, for which you will be extremely well prepared.

This is the only thing that drives me crazy about ATP....... But that's me..... Also Forever777 STOP burning bridgest man! You got to go about this in another way dude!

What? Every flight school has about 2-3 examiners they like to use, and don't use anyone else unless the other guys are busy. Again, for clarity, they do this at EVERY flight school.

 

[bbjpilot]

ATP-Approved Examiners
We work with the same Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) day in and day out—they are familiar with our standardized training procedures and checklists. This relationship ensures a low-stress checkride, for which you will be extremely well prepared.

This is the only thing that drives me crazy about ATP....... But that's me..... Also Forever777 STOP burning bridgest man! You got to go about this in another way dude!

Meyers9163 your right that bugs me too .I did some training at ATP Phx. They used an examiner from Avondale he was a Bechjet first officer with Flight Options. He failed everybody in my apartment. I get set to go home Dave Shiftman schedules my checkride for the day he knew i was leaving. Got the ticket off priceline so it could not have been changed and he calls Korski while im back in New York and get's me terminatied for dictating the program . Even though we were told we could take a week off before starting the career program. 14,000 later and no private. Good Luck ATPER's

 

[meyers9163]

What? Every flight school has about 2-3 examiners they like to use, and don't use anyone else unless the other guys are busy. Again, for clarity, they do this at EVERY flight school.

But does every school put it out there on the internet and have it published like this? I dunno, i mean where I train we go through a guy who we are familiar with. But you better believe he changes thigns up everytime. We have a gist of how the rides will go but you better believe one day he will not do one thing the next he will do another. But I'd never let HIM know that we only use him and he doesnt know it. So ATP is saying hey "DE we are using you so you better do us right"?