I'm going to start taking bets....

[jtrain609]

I understand exactly what you are saying. It's frustrating. In my current flying there are issues coming up that I didn't have before. Things are changing out there.

But it is also true that when I started there were many captains who thought the airline was really throwing away all reasonable standards in hiring civilian pilots. Later as I watched the regionals explode and the age and experience level of commercial jet captains/FOs plummet to all time lows I was sure we were about to see a bloodbath. That's why when things just continued to get safer I was forced to take a second look.

How numerous factors converge and interact to produce a safe (or unsafe) operation are hard to predict. I do know that some of the most dangerous pilots I have ever flown with had a ton of hours. And some of the most professional pilots I've flown with were low-timers.

It is also true that in the history of the airlines they have always hired low-time pilots when they had to. So in that sense this isn't new at all.

I will ask again, how many 400 hour guys have you had sitting next to you at .80?

How about how many 180 hour guys you've had to teach how to fly a 7,000 lbs "light" twin?

Or a Beech 99?

It's not as rosy as you think, and if a guy can't hack a 99 then they got no business being in a jet.

 

[Trip7]

I will ask again, how many 400 hour guys have you had sitting next to you at .80?

How about how many 180 hour guys you've had to teach how to fly a 7,000 lbs "light" twin?

Or a Beech 99?

It's not as rosy as you think, and if a guy can't hack a 99 then they got no business being in a jet.

How many 400 hr guys have you had next to you at .80 jtrain?

My ATP instructor says alot of ex-military jet guys doing their ATP license struggle with the seminole. In fact one air force lear pilot failed her ATP checkride the first attempt. Jet and prop are two different animals.

Next, this is how China and India are training their home grown pilots. They don't have a mega-complex cadet program like the Europeans, they train their pilots to commercial standards and at 250 put them in the 737 or Airbus. No safety problems there!

Well, again i think this topic is pointless because there are no facts that prove low time pilots are bad. FAA made 250 SIC mins for a reason. They made 1200 135 mins for a reason. Why aren't you guys complaining 135 mins are too low? b/c thats what most freight hire at, they don't add time to the mins like the regionals do. When there are real facts or numbers that show safety is being compromised by low timers then there may be an issue. Until then I firmly believe its quality of training, not some dumb number.

 

[jtrain609]

And you'd know this how?

 

[OldTownPilot]

Next, this is how China and India are training their home grown pilots. They don't have a mega-complex cadet program like the Europeans, they train their pilots to commercial standards and at 250 put them in the 737 or Airbus. No safety problems there!

Indonesia is having a HUGE safety problem right now. They use a LOT of VERY low timers in jets.

I understand you might be young and a little nieve, but a 250 hour guy has no business flying MY FAMILY around in a jet. I know you want to take the fast track to a RJ, but look at the big picture man, 250 hours is jack crap when it comes to high altitude aerodynamics, multiple system failures or a major malfunction.

 

[Trip7]

Indonesia is having a HUGE safety problem right now. They use a LOT of VERY low timers in jets.

I understand you might be young and a little nieve, but a 250 hour guy has no business flying MY FAMILY around in a jet. I know you want to take the fast track to a RJ, but look at the big picture man, 250 hours is jack crap when it comes to high altitude aerodynamics, multiple system failures or a major malfunction.

Indonesia's safety problem has nothing to do with low timers. Show proof if u think im wrong. Second, FAA not me, thinks that 250 hrs is sufficient for SIC. If you have a problem with that maybe you should write to your local congressman to propose a change.

 

[Ophir]

Do you even know what "safety" means?



Just because Mesa, et al, aren't piling airplanes into the ground left and right doesn't make them safe. Safety can be compromised LONG before any metal is bent. And if you think the FAA is out to promote safety by requiring 250 hours or whatever, you're way naive. The FAA does a piss poor job at promoting safety.

:yeahthat:

And it doesn't change the fact that the captain is carrying the FO. When this is happening you cannot argue that this is distraction to the safety of flight because the PIC is concentrating on getting the FO to do the most menial tasks.

 

[Ophir]

Indonesia's safety problem has nothing to do with low timers. Show proof if u think im wrong. Second, FAA not me, thinks that 250 hrs is sufficient for SIC. If you have a problem with that maybe you should write to your local congressman to propose a change.

So tell us Marcus, what do you believe in then? What are you tenants of aviation? I'm just curious. And if you would, could you at least PM me and let me know what is happening in Indonesia? Thanks. -Chuck

 

[jtrain609]

Here's another problem.

WHENEVER you start flying a new piece of equipment you're going to be behind the plane, that can't be stopped. The question is HOW LONG this is going to happen. It took me a good 10 hours to get ahead of the 99 on departures and you know what? It climbs at the same airspeed as the Chieftain, it's climb rate is MUCH higher, though. The first few departures I made I was COMPLETELY behind the aircraft and it was pretty obvious. 10 hours later I'm on top of it for the most part, and I think I even figured out how to finally land the thing tonight.

So some of ya'll youngin's seem to think that because you'll be behind the aircraft no matter what for a little while, it's alright if that period of time is longer.

Simply put it's not. Que Chicaga for something about professionalism right about here.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Indonesia's safety problem has nothing to do with low timers. Show proof if u think im wrong.

Indonesia's problem, may or may not be a product of low timers. I never said it was. I just made stated two FACTS, that may or may not have a correlation.

This is not shorthand texting, please don't write like that. On an internet board with a lot of aviation professionals, that shows no professionalism.

Second, FAA not me, thinks that 250 hrs is sufficient for SIC. If you have a problem with that maybe you should write to your local congressman to propose a change.

This was NOT implied by this. Stop contradicting yourself.

I think this whole discussion is silly. Low timers are not going to decrease air safety. If it was true MESA would have the worst safety record in history because they've been doing MAPD and PACE for a while. FAA deemed 250 hr safe enough for SIC. Any minimums above that is looked upon as a business decision by the airline. Besides, all the nice equipment in today's passenger jets provide more safety. Just my .02

 

[DE727UPS]

"My ATP instructor says..........."

That kinda speaks volumes.

You're sitting here telling everyone from B767 Capts to guys who teach newbies at the largest 135 freight airline in the country that they are wrong and you have the bigger, better, picture.

Knock yerself out with with that.....

 

[montanapilot]

And you'd know this how?

because his instructor told him so!

 

[PositionAndHold]

Like Bog said, the thing about "nice equipment" is it's a real handful when it stops working. Take the FMS for example. It's REALLY nice when it works. When it fails on you 2 hours outta DTW at 32,000 ft, then you have to unfold the charts and fly green needles, DC-9 style. I really wouldn't wanna be doing a IR training flight while running the radios, setting up for an approach and talking to dispatch/mx/station ops. You lose your FMS in training.....while being vectored to final on an approach. The first time you experience an FMS failure en route is gonna be in the real plane.

This is just pure curiosity since I operate outside the 121 world. Don't you guys back up every thing, every time with green (raw data)? Whether we are going vfr for 20 mins, or going across the country. We ALWAYS back it up with green data. The charts are out the whole way on a long trip, picking VORs out in front of us. So if the fms's do take a dump we can still get on an airway and navigate with out too much extra work.

Not ment to be any thing harsh, just asking an honest question of the 121/135 operators out there.

 

[Ophir]

That's a tough question to answer honestly on a forum. But I think polling would show that the answer is no, the charts aren't accessed and the needles stay white, most of the time.

 

[WestIndian425]

That's a tough question to answer honestly on a forum. But I think polling would show that the answer is no, the charts aren't accessed and the needles stay white, most of the time.

Ours are magenta.

Technically, we're supposed to, particularly when travelling in mountainous terrain (translation: Mexico). Some do it, others don't.

 

[kellwolf]

You get PAID to fly to strict procedures and follow checklists. Not to improvise what you *think* is right. If you have a problem, you do your memory action items if required, then what? You reference the appropriate checklist.

Man, if I had a dime for every time I actually flew the sim profile in real life....I'd have MAYBE $1.50. If you stick to the strict procedures and profiles, you're gonna be saying "Unable" a LOT to ATC in DTW. How much experience do you have in the 121 environment? I was under the impression you just got hired at Colgan. I don't think there's a QRH for "diversion" or "thunderstorm avoidance" and there's no profile, either. Where are you gonna go for guidance on that? Experience and "what you *think* is right."

PoH, ditto what Ophir says. We've got the high altitude charts within grabbing distance at all times, so it would take about 30 seconds to get a VOR frequency and get on course, but we generally don't fly with them out all the time. The FMS uses a lot more sources than one VOR to keep you on course.

 

[BobDDuck]

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had to pull VOR freqs off an on route chart. The only time we are in green is when shooting an approach or departure (DCA) that requires it.

 

[AmazingPilot]

And that folks is from a 121 Checkairman.

So obviously title and time are extremely important to you.

 

[AmazingPilot]

AmazingPilot, I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth or saying about my actions what I will do when/if another plane crashes.

When I found out about the Comair accident in LEX, the first thing I did was call my buddy who commutes out of LEX to make sure he was not on the flight. That is the first thing I will do when/if another plane goes down, pray that none of my friends are on it. I will take NO pleasure when/if a plane goes down. You are a sick individual for even implying I would think something like that. I feel that there is something wrong with this industry. I am trying to do something about it, making people think about it, rather than sitting at home on the computer silent about it.

I never put words in your mouth, you are the one who said word for word;

I'm going to start taking bets to see which regional is the next to put a smoking hole in the ground.

 

[Ian_J]

Seggy... why do these random guys tend to join JC just to mess with you? It happens all the time!

AmazingPilot - no offense - but I personally question someone's motives for joining the site when all they tend to do is argue. Especially in their first 25 or so posts. Whatchyu gots against Segs, man?

 

[AmazingPilot]

AmazingPilot - no offense - but I personally question someone's motives for joining the site when all they tend to do is argue. Especially in their first 25 or so posts. Whatchyu gots against Segs, man?

Well i don't mean to come off as argumentative, but I do think people should be accountable for what they say.
While yes I don't agree with alot of what Seggy has to say, I do appreciate his feedback.
You can't make sensationalist comments or state facts and then expect people to accept them as being true without facts.
Opinions are fine, I personally think that Seggy has a poor way of phrasing things. I am sure that is the case here, but I still think it is demeaning the way he phrases things.
I also find him very cocky and arrogent thinking that it was okay for him to get hired at 600 hours, but those minimums are too low for the rest of the pilot population.
If he would be willing to admit that he is bad a phrasing things or that he is as cocky as he seems then I would give him alot more credit.