Advanced Airline Training Program

why not put some dedication and hard work towards that goal then???

Paying for the opportunity is a half assed way of getting towards your goal.

If you don't think that you'll feel better about yourself by working hard towards your goal and earning everything that comes to you, then go for the direct track.

Most people with pride in their skill and in their profession will choose to gain experience and knowledge before they take on a job with the responsibility associated with being a First Officer. being an instructor might not teach you how to fly a jet, but it teaches you how to be a quiet observer. Most important though, being an instructor (cargo pilot, etc. etc.) teaches you how to be PIC, and make decisions regarding the safety of the flight....

When you're working for a company that steps on your d**k every chance they get and you're not getting paid crap, don't complain. It's what you paid for...not earned....


What you have "earned" can be very vague (spell check please) I know guys that instructed with me over at Sabena Airlines that had over 1000 hours of ALL pre-private students, were not instrument or multi engine current that met the MINIMUM requirements to get hired with a regional. Are you saying they have "EARNED" that right seat simply because they stuck it out?

Thats straight up BS..... I know you say instructing those PPL's made him a good PIC making safety decisions etc. etc. etc..... More BS.... 100 hours or 1000 hours to the practice area and back with those guys flying the SAME x-country's over and over again. Same difference...

Heres where I stand on instructors and "IF" they "EARNED" that next step. ONLY if they had a diverse student load from PPL to instrument to multi through their 1000 hours of instruction, have they earned that spot and the respect of being an instructor for that period of time.... Unless they have been instructing instrument and ME students up to their CRJ ground school, I do not want them flying my family around. I'll take the DT guy that is proficient in the instrument environment in complex aircraft.

I know that not ALL instructors out there only get Pre-Privates, are in need of an IPC and ME currency..... BUT ...... it really is more common than you think. For those instructors that have a diverse student load and are working hard on their instrument skills, yes they are gaining valuable experience...

BTW...that is why the regionals like FSA instructors, they are getting an enormous amount of instrument instruction in the Seminole....

ILS
 
I've been working a convention for the last few days, so I haven't been keeping up, but I'm back.

I'll say this about direct track, I think the training was great and it's a good program, when it works out. Having said that...

DON'T DO IT!!!

UPS should love that. Take your $22k and just time build. Even if you rent some nice plane at $120/hr, you can still build almost 200 hours of ACTUAL flight time. More perspective, I've flown ONCE (actual flight time, did get some sim time in June) since my checkride in Jan for a grand total of about 1.7 hrs in the last 10 months. I'm broke so I can't fly and the money I make working is going to pay the bills. Even if ASA did call today I'm no longer instrument current so I'd have to shell out the cash I don't have to get current again, so they may not even take me until that happens.

As for others that have done the program...some are really great, and some are struggling. I know a few that struggled and I think they shouldn't have been hired in the first place. A few are knuckleheads I wouldn't want to fly with for any amount of money.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate the issue anymore because it's a dead horse. Just telling you what I think. It's a great program, for the right kind of person. Unfortunately the wrong people still get hired.

And yes, I am a little bitter.


Blue skies and fly safe.
 
"Take your 22k and time build."

How about get a loan for 22k less or if you for some reason dont need loans take the 22k and put it in an aggressive growth mutual fund.
 
"I gaurantee you that the DT guys have to be "baby sat" a hell of a lot less by the captain than the CFI off the street.... It has been proven....."

Proven by whom? I think you just made that up. Now, if you were working as a pilot at a regional airline that hired direct trackers, somebody might consider that your opinion was based on fact. What airline do you work for again?

And you spelled guarantee wrong....
 
"Anyway, I'm not going to debate the issue anymore because it's a dead horse"

You really shouldn't quit debating it. I know I won't. You are in a unique position, here at JC, as you actually went through the program and can talk about, first hand, how it goes.

My first response at this thread for AviatorB was a simple "PM Badco99". I really didn't want to say any more. However, as the thread progressed AviatorB made some comments I wasn't about to let go. If he never PMed you, then he's a fool.

Anyhow, Cherokee Cruiser has been around long enough that he knows what happened with you. Newbies should at least be able to hear your story to offset FSA's "best case scenario" marketing. I guess we could tell people to just use the search function but it's not the same as someone directly addressing a new thread.

Anyhow, best of luck to you, Badco. Believe me, I'm not happy things turned out the way they did for you. If you're in Vegas the Saturday of NJC, beer and lunch is on me. I remember you saying you might be around.
 
I guess it's more the back and forth of the whole thing. We've had it out, and it just never seems to end. I think you are right that maybe it shouldn't, but the occasional break is nice. Right now I'm just happy to tell people what happened to me, and probably a few others. Sure there were two of us from FSA, but we forget that there were people from ATP and DCA. Who knows how many of them got screwed.

I never got a PM. If he has more questions he can feel free to ask.

I appreciate your last paragraph. I know you didn't really like the path I chose, but you didn't want everything to come crashing down around me either.

As for lunch, as I recall pilots never turn down anything free. Guess I should go ahead and register for the big night. Is there a schedule? I know the tours are Friday and the party that night, is there anything else? Deadline to register? I looked through the forum and did a search and didn't find much, or maybe I found it all. Anyway, we'll figure something out.
 
DE,

Stop talking about direct track and just do it. Then will have someone here who can tell us how great it is. Same for Cherokeee Cruiser. Just do it....



If I am the voice of Direct Track, then you are definetly the voice of Nike ;)




To answer your question, I know last time we touched up on this subject I was in between MAPD and FSA Direct Track. MAPD is now out, for a multitude of reasons. Direct Track is not out, it's still #1 in my list of things to seriously consider attending.
 
"I gaurantee you that the DT guys have to be "baby sat" a hell of a lot less by the captain than the CFI off the street.... It has been proven....."

Proven by whom? I think you just made that up. Now, if you were working as a pilot at a regional airline that hired direct trackers, somebody might consider that your opinion was based on fact. What airline do you work for again?

And you spelled guarantee wrong....


I do not have to make it up. The Chief Pilot from ASA told me and several others at the meeting directly. If you were up on your JC posts you would remember that I told you about that awhile back.

I don't have to work for an airline to know key people in the industry. Don't you remember, I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people. He must not know what he is talking about huh? I mean, you know, because he is not you.....

If I wanted to fly for a regional, I would have been there long ago. Don't believe me? Ask CheckSix. He knows which jobs I have been offered...

It was a typo smart guy.....

ILS
 
I guess it's more the back and forth of the whole thing. We've had it out, and it just never seems to end. I think you are right that maybe it shouldn't, but the occasional break is nice. Right now I'm just happy to tell people what happened to me, and probably a few others. Sure there were two of us from FSA, but we forget that there were people from ATP and DCA. Who knows how many of them got screwed.

I never got a PM. If he has more questions he can feel free to ask.

I appreciate your last paragraph. I know you didn't really like the path I chose, but you didn't want everything to come crashing down around me either.

As for lunch, as I recall pilots never turn down anything free. Guess I should go ahead and register for the big night. Is there a schedule? I know the tours are Friday and the party that night, is there anything else? Deadline to register? I looked through the forum and did a search and didn't find much, or maybe I found it all. Anyway, we'll figure something out.


It is unfortunate that ASA put the hiring on hold. I was scheduled for my interview with them in January 04 a month after completion of my MEI. They interviewed 4 in December and took one guy. BAM.... they stopped the hiring. What pissed me off was that the one guy that they took, dropped out in the Seneca phase. I was ready to go and would have breezed through the training. I had just moved my wife and daughter back to Vero for the CFII/MEI and ASA. It sucked, but thats life. I NEVER blamed FSA for ASA stopping the hiring and niether should you. FSA has zero control over ASA's decisions and they don't let FSA know anything until the day it happens....

From what I understand FSA offered you Eagle or one of the others. why haven't you taken FSA up on ther offer to go to Eagle or one of the others. It beats sitting around. Another question, did you get your instructor ratings? If not, I am sure FSA would have helped you out with that. The management can be very accomodating when approached with an issue...

I know for a fact that if ASA calls you up that FSA will put you back in the sim to get you up to speed and current. However, if you keep beating them up over something only ASA had control over, they might not be very sympathetic. I would think about that. I know I would...

BTW.... If they do call, I would go back....

Good luck..

ILS
 
"I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people"

He's quite entitled to his opinion on FSA and me being an idiot. Tell him to introduce himself someday.

"I NEVER blamed FSA for ASA stopping the hiring and niether should you. FSA has zero control over ASA's decisions and they don't let FSA know anything until the day it happens...."

Yeah, FSA can't control the hiring situation at their partner regionals. ASA decided to stop hiring and people got burned. One of several good reasons not to do direct track. Wanna hear more?

"However, if you keep beating them up over something only ASA had control over, they might not be very sympathetic"

Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it.

"It was a typo smart guy....."

You started it....
 
"I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people"

He's quite entitled to his opinion on FSA and me being an idiot. Tell him to introduce himself someday.

You do not want to debate with him. He will have you crawling into a hole to hide. He is a sharp cat.

"
"I NEVER blamed FSA for ASA stopping the hiring and niether should you. FSA has zero control over ASA's decisions and they don't let FSA know anything until the day it happens...."

Yeah, FSA can't control the hiring situation at their partner regionals. ASA decided to stop hiring and people got burned. One of several good reasons not to do direct track. Wanna hear more?

The program has worked out extremely well for 250+ candidates. I would say the program has been a success and I believe the regionals feel the same about the quality as well...


"
"However, if you keep beating them up over something only ASA had control over, they might not be very sympathetic"

Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it.

If you were as smart as you think you are, then you would realize that it is common sense not to rock the boat when FSA does NOT HAVE TO give you any recurrent training free of charge. They do it because you are a customer and that is how they do business. Any idea what it costs to run a level D sim per hour? Approx. $2,000 an hour last I checked.

I made a phone call today to an old friend at the academy and did some research. From what I found out FSA did not just send him packing. It's not their style. They offered him some alternatives. They have tried to help him out. If he is holding out for ASA and not willing to go to one of the other regionals then that is his decision. I too chose ASA and elected not to interview with Eagle. Maybe, BADCO can shed some light on this subject...


"
"It was a typo smart guy....."

You started it....

Yeah, your right. I did. Only for kicks and giggles though...

ILS
 
Wow, I sure missed alot while I was gone.

To everyone that has been dedicated to posting in this thread (727UPS, CAV, ILS, Launchpad), I really appreciate the input. It really shows that whether we all disagree with each other on everything or agree on everything, we stick to our guns and keep the insults to a minimum. Personally, I would be honored to fly with any of yall whether or not we agree on anything at all. If I can say one thing for sure about all of you, is that you really love aviation.

Badco, I had read about your misfortune on other posts and am sorry that had to happen to you. I know I wouldnt want to be in your place.

ILS, I think your new nickname should be "the hammer".:sarcasm::insane:
 
ILS, it is one thing to have an opinion. But this bashing has gotten out of hand. I think we can all agree that FSA is a good school. Don has even agreed with this in other post, he just doesn't think it is worth the cost. Same for Badco, he never said the training he received there was sub par, just that in his opinion the direct track is not worth it. So, why not just agree to disagree and let it go?
Any idea what it costs to run a level D sim per hour? Approx. $2,000 an hour last I checked.
Who ever told you this is smoking crack. Most of the cost of running a sim is building the thing. Once you have one, they are not that expensive to run. Most of the type ratings consist of around 12 hrs in the sim and a 2 hr checkride. But the price they charge has many variables. Usually the bigger the airplane, the more they can charge. Do you really think FSI is going to be charging $28k to type someone in the Citation Mustang when it comes out? Pretty steep for an airplane that cost $2.6 million. It would be cheaper to train in the airplane. If FSA puts someone back into the sim before they go to school, it doesn't cost them much.
 
It's official, no longer intersted in ASA

ASA called this morning to "update their database." Told them I was no longer interested. I should have asked about class dates, but they woke me up and caught me off guard. Oh well, that's life I guess. To be perfectly honest I don't feel like I'm ready to go to ASA right now. It's not that I don't think I could do it, but I'm not instrument current and I know for a fact the first time I got into that plane I would probably be overwhelmed by the radios and everything else because I haven't flown in so long. Last thing I flew was a two seat Diamond out of Long Beach. I could fly the plane, but everything else sucked big time.

Onto the latest comments. First, another airline. None of the airlines accept laterals. I know marketing was trying to see if Pinnacle would take me, but nothing ever came of it. That was the ONLY alternative they offered me. I tried the Business Jet Direct and that just turned into a big cluster. And I used my couple hours of extra time in the sim before I left. Regardless, I don't want to shell out another few hundred I don't have to get back to Vero to do it.

Cost of the ERJ sim is about $1000/hr. The training I was getting in LGB on the EMB-120 was worth about $12,000 as I recall. I'm sure bigger and better planes cost more.

As for blaming FSA, I don't blame them. But considering I invested over $80,000 in flight training there I'd expect more than, "It's out of our hands." I think more people could have been involved. Someone should have said, "I don't care if you only want 4 direct track in a class. They spent their money to work for your airline, you're having classes so get them in already." If I was good enough to hire in the first place then it shouldn't matter how many direct tracks are in the class.

The instructor ratings...that was mentioned while I was still in FL waiting. As i recall the CFII was $2000-3000, and MEI about the same. So lets say $6000. Who wants to give me the $6000 to get those ratings??? And I do mean give, not loan. Sure it may only be a couple grand, but when you only have about $200 to your name that's a little hard. I tried to get an instructor job, but since I hadn't flown a PPL maneuver in over a year they wanted me to get 3-4 hours practice before they'd go any further. Again, a few hundred I didn't have to spend.

I've been keeping this quite, but here is a cold hard FACT. Between my student loan and my father (cause he convinced me to do the direct track and loaned me the money) I am about $150,000 in debt. Lets see the break down....Flight training: $80,500, Interst to date: $20,000, father: $30,000 ($22.5k for direct track, the rest for other things like moving and paying off my student loan since I can't do it right now). That leaves about $20,000 for living expenses. Did I blow some of it on stuff I didn't need, yes. But the majority went to bills, food, etc.

"Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it."

How's this for worrying about FSA management...they can take a flying leap. I was going to say something else but it would probably get edited. Scovgard, Wakefield and probably Haland need to go. From what understand they were on their way out when the big wigs from NY decided to fire all the part time people instead, which included a lot of GREAT ground instructors. By all means, go to FSA to do your training, its great. BUT don't do direct track and don't work there until they are gone. The only way I'd recommend DT now is if you are given a 100% guarantee that upon completion of the program you will be in the NEXT available ground school.

WELL, that got a little long. Believe me when I say I'd rather be flying than going back to law enforcement. I LOVE to fly. It has been my first choice of careers for as long as I can remember, law enforecment was a distant second. I wish I could still do it, but due to money and timing it just hasn't worked out. It's not like I didn't try. I'm not religious and I can't say I believe in destiny, but maybe things really do happen for a reason.



Blue skies and fly safe everyone.
 
Re: It's official, no longer intersted in ASA

Sorry folks, I generally haven't spent a lot of time in the FSA thread because it's been historically quiet.

This is my opinion. It's 'stream of consciousness' so I might ramble.

There are five distinct "training circles".

One training circle is the military. People that have the qualifications for the military and have a strong desire to serve their country generally take this route. Highly structured program, intense training, little opportunity for extra training and zero spoon feeding. Perform at 100% or become the "chief bottle washer" of your Air Force base. Taxpayer-financed training, but you repay that cost with a charge to defend the nation with your life.

Another training circle are the FBO/fixed base operators. Spread across the country at small, medium and large airports offering a variety of services. Some have stuctured programs, some don't. Costs are generally lower than other training circles, but you get the same FAA certificate than you get anywhere else. Mostly meant for people who want to train at their local airport at their own pace. Less structure and less overhead mean a lower cost.

Flight Academies are another circle. Some students perform best in a tightly structured (for the lack of a better term) quasi-military style program with performance goals, a tight syllabus and whatnot. Additional structure means a higher cost than a FBO/fixed base operator.

Another training circle are accelerated (training) programs. If you're a self-starter, learn fast on your own and generally (unlike me cuz I'm a little slow) have the ability to get concepts and manuevers down pat the first time, you can save time and sometimes money with a program like this. Costs vary depending on the company.

And the last circle is the Aviation University. A mix of Flight Academy added into a collegiate environment.

As a potential student, you've really got to look at yourself first and figure out how you learn and what you want to get out of training in order to decide which training circle you'd do best in. Some people need a red-hot fire poker in their rump during training and others want a 'peace train' approach. Comparing prices and programs across circles isn't a valid comparison unless you recognize what environment you feel you'll best succeed in.

Focus primarily on the training and the environment that best matches the way you realistically learn.
 
ILS, it is one thing to have an opinion. But this bashing has gotten out of hand. I think we can all agree that FSA is a good school. Don has even agreed with this in other post, he just doesn't think it is worth the cost. Same for Badco, he never said the training he received there was sub par, just that in his opinion the direct track is not worth it. So, why not just agree to disagree and let it go?Who ever told you this is smoking crack. Most of the cost of running a sim is building the thing. Once you have one, they are not that expensive to run. Most of the type ratings consist of around 12 hrs in the sim and a 2 hr checkride. But the price they charge has many variables. Usually the bigger the airplane, the more they can charge. Do you really think FSI is going to be charging $28k to type someone in the Citation Mustang when it comes out? Pretty steep for an airplane that cost $2.6 million. It would be cheaper to train in the airplane. If FSA puts someone back into the sim before they go to school, it doesn't cost them much.

I'd also like to see less slandering of people just because you disagree with them.
 
"Sorry folks, I generally haven't spent a lot of time in the FSA thread because it's been historically quiet"

Somebody must have complained...

Honestly, this place is far from quiet. Pull up a chair and sit down, Doug.
 
I'd like to thank Doug for opening up this thread again.



DE,

Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator.


This thread had not gone out of control. It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling.

It seems like this thread is very informative, and if anything, someone somwhere will learn from it.

But yet, you closed this thread.

I understand you don't like Direct Track, so I hope you aren't letting this cloud you. Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing, and very informative? I say let this run, people can only learn from it. IF, and IF, it gets out of hand, then go ahead and shut 'er down. But until then, lets be open, no ?


Doug, again, thanks for opening this thread again.
 
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