Amazon Air MIA Runway Excursion

Roger Roger said:
Current shop the CA backs up auto speedbrakes on every landing.

Previous one the PM would verify and call out auto spoiler deployment.
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Makes sense. I assume here that the crew believed they were fully on the ground, but with no spoiler deployment and likely no TR ability. With the above, and we do the second one of those options, one would think the crew would’ve manually deployed the spoilers, the plane would’ve settled, then the TRs would be available. Won’t know until the CVR is analyzed regards what was going on in the cockpit.
 
MikeD said:
Makes sense. I assume here that the crew believed they were fully on the ground, but with no spoiler deployment and likely no TR ability. With the above, and we do the second one of those options, one would think the crew would’ve manually deployed the spoilers, the plane would’ve settled, then the TRs would be available. Won’t know until the CVR is analyzed regards what was going on in the cockpit.
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Maybe… or they didn’t think it would go bad that fast; especially if they were light. I can’t imagine they were being much back from SJU.
I wonder if they had an additive for gusty winds and it ended up biting them in the end.

Either way it’ll be interesting to hear why someone didn’t manually deploy the boards. Between the 75 and 76 the 76 seemed to be the worse offender for the boards not coming up with a soft landing or after having a skip/bounce. This comes up a few times in our FCTM as well as making sure the mains are on the ground before de rotating.
 
The spoilers deploy once both main gear bogeys are de-tilted and the thrust levers are at idle, if they are armed. Otherwise they will come out once the reverser piggybacks are moved to the idle detent. Reverser unlocking also requires main gear bogey de-tilt.

One of the main gears was still tilted and up in the air throughout most of the posted video. Reverse thrust was never selected, and probably still locked out. In the 767 it is not recommended to just yank the spoilers out manually until the nose gear is on the ground because it produces a significant pitch up moment and increases the risk of tail strike. At least at my company the PM should make the "no speedbrakes" callout after touchdown and the PF will wait to deploy them or instruct the PM to deploy them once the nose wheel is on the ground.
 
Roger Roger said:
For what I’ve always thought of as a pretty plain vanilla twin jet, we sure do seem to end up discussing spoiler behavior on a landing incident/accident on a 76 pretty often
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Overall it's a fairly docile airplane. It just has two quirks that you need to watch out for. Spoiler behavior on landing is one of them. I recently flew with another Italian FO that did 13 years on the 76 in various expat jobs before coming here. Incredible experience on type and one of the reasons you don't judge a book by its seniority number. He said at his old shop he would take all the legs with an Auto Speedbrake MEL because they had several issues with it. I tend to be more laissez-faire about these things and give people the opportunity to learn by doing but it made me think about my approach now and its definitely something I'll consider especially if I've never seen the person fly yet.

The other gotcha is it has a pretty narrow window between slat overspeed and clean configuration stick shaker onset when heavy. If you're too eager sucking the slats up, especially in a turn, it will bite the shaker. It doesn't help that Boeing in its infinite wisdom only shows you the PLI when the slats are not up. So you call for Flaps Up, watch the PLI drop to right above your pitch cue, then disappear when you need it the most. Luckily now they finally retrofitted most of ours with speed tapes and trend vectors (yay 30 year old technology) which makes it a bit easier than with just an analog airspeed indicator and plastic bugs.
 
MikeD said:
once touching down, if the spoilers don’t immediately deploy, are pilots not alert to immediately manually deploy them? one of our jets, when the spoilers are armed and green light on, occasionally something might not be fully touching something electric-wise, and the spoilers won’t auto-deploy on touchdown. Each pilot is alert to immediately pull the spoilers handle aft and manually deploy them. And that is SOP now for us to be alert for on touchdown.
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Was a callout at my airline “spoilers up” or something like that up till I got off it in 2024…
 
I had a few landings in the 76 where (and not from skill) I landed so gently, the de tilt was slow. Causing this eerie feeling of wondering if we are on the ground or not. Then the CA would manually pull the lever, and the plane would settle like grandpa in his recliner after thanksgiving dinner. Tried not to grease them on after that happened on a somewhat shorter runway. I never want to be the subject of discussion about a smooth roll on followed by an over run.

Good thing on the 73 I just pound that thing on most of the time. We ain’t over running anything the way I land that thing.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Same. I’ve never heard of 21 Air.
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If you have seen the white 757-200 or 767-200 at SFO/MSP with a black tail and no other markings you can read from afar, that is them. They have been flying to both airports for over 1 years for DHL. They also operate the DHL paint 757s that recently appeared in the US.
 
Roger Roger said:
For what I’ve always thought of as a pretty plain vanilla twin jet, we sure do seem to end up discussing spoiler behavior on a landing incident/accident on a 76 pretty often
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It is until crews start doing stuff outside of the box for whatever reason.
Sucks that 5 people paid the price for whatever they had going on in the flight deck.
 
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