NetJets crash in Laredo TX

[MikeD]

This is almost always a result of incompetent supervisors asking for more info and then failing to pass it on down the line. Sometimes it’s just controllers not knowing • about planes, but either way that info should be passed on after you give it once. Sometimes even when it is passed on the person it was passed on to failed to disseminate it in time. Hell I had a supervisor once roll the trucks because someone was returning to TEB because the pax forgot their wallet, but rolled them just because they were a returnee.

I imagine it’s sometimes like the proverbial telephone game when multiple ATC agencies get info passed from one to the next to the next, and the info changes in the process.

The quality of supervisor and management in general is at an all time low right now because the good controllers from busy places couldn’t get deviations approved to become supervisors so instead you have people from low level towers now being management at centers and tracons with no radar experience and are not required to become certified in the facilities that they’re supposed to supervise. For example, one of ours Operations Managers came here from MMU tower. They don’t even have a certified radar display. He is an Ops Manager at a level 12 Tracon and has never radar identified an aircraft in his life, let alone vectored anyone.

Only one way to change that. You can keep griping at your level about the incompetent management, which will change nothing; or you can promote to sup and work to make the positive changes the management cadre needs, if only just affecting positive change at the ops of your own facility.

 

[Roger Roger]

Only one way to change that. You can keep griping at your level about the incompetent management, which will change nothing; or you can promote to sup and work to make the positive changes the management cadre needs, if only just affecting positive change at the ops of your own facility.

He literally can’t.

the good controllers from busy places couldn’t get deviations approved to become supervisors

 

[MikeD]

Running government like a business.

Government agencies are the train that moves at 5 mph. You can get out and try to push it faster, you can get in front and try to pull it faster, or you can hop on and ride it. At best, you can make changes to what the scenery looks like or works like on top of that train….ie-your particular office or location…..make it look nicer or work a little better or more enjoyable or more efficient. But the macro agency itself, will always roll along at that 5 mph speed down the track no matter what.

 

[MikeD]

He literally can’t.

That sucks. The good controllers are literally what’s needed in the supervisory ranks. But….government agencies. See above.

 

[schloopy]

Not that I think its worth much given the source but I landed in LRD a few hours after the crash and our driver said his son called him all worked up after seeing the plane fly over with what appeared to be an engine on fire.

On the night of, in the Facebook post with the evacuation video on one of the local news pages, I noticed at least 3 or 4 locals commenting claiming to have individually seen it with visible flames. Make of that what you will.

 

[MikeD]

On the night of, in the Facebook post with the evacuation video on one of the local news pages, I noticed at least 3 or 4 locals commenting claiming to have individually seen it with visible flames. Make of that what you will.

There’s a good amount of useable wreckage for investigation that it should be easily determined if that was the case or not, with either engine. Unlike the B-52 crash at EDW, where the majority of the aircraft ended up as melted slag, leaving little physical evidence.

 

[CFI A&P]

I suspect it might be less about that and more about not having a minor issue become internet fodder.

Bingo, with the proliferation of automatic frequency scanners that generate content for bloggers, trigger words will certainly get their attention.

I don't know where I picked up the notion, but I was under the impression that they requested the divert somewhere over west central Mehico.

Another social media forum said that AUS customs might have denied them, therefore going to another AOE. Disclaimer: I have put zero effort into verifying that.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: The eternal silly 91/135 vs. 121 pursefights: Of COURSE 91/135 is "less safe". It's a totally different operation. The germane question is more like "given the differences in risk that are just baked into even asking the question in the first place, is 91/135 *relatively* more dangerous than one would expect, all other things being equal?" And, as per previous posts, my experience would suggest "sometimes yes, sometimes no, but more often yes than anyone should feel comfortable with".

 

[NovemberEcho]

Only one way to change that. You can keep griping at your level about the incompetent management, which will change nothing; or you can promote to sup and work to make the positive changes the management cadre needs, if only just affecting positive change at the ops of your own facility.

The front line managers have little say in anything other than running the break board. The rot goes up far higher than them. The FAA wants managers who do what they’re told, not what actually improves the operation. We’ve had two ATM’s removed from their position here since the move because they pushed back against what thr FAA wanted when they could see how unrealistic it was with what is happening here. The current ATM hasn’t worked traffic since she was at Bismarck Tower, and thinks we are lying when we say the frequencies go out. We firmly believe that very soon the FAA will be telling managers to check people out that don’t even have recommendations from their trainers just because our staffing is about to be •ed when people start returning to N90 at the end of July, leaving us with net -3 certified controllers from when they moved us down here.

 

[pwttogfk]

There’s a good amount of useable wreckage for investigation that it should be easily determined if that was the case or not, with either engine. Unlike the B-52 crash at EDW, where the majority of the aircraft ended up as melted slag, leaving little physical evidence.

Additionally, modern Citations log and transmit huge amounts of data. When we get a fault, there’s an Iridium transmission and by the time I land there’s an email in our department inbox with a detailed fault description with tons of flight data.

 

[derg]

The front line managers have little say in anything other than running the break board. The rot goes up far higher than them. The FAA wants managers who do what they’re told, not what actually improves the operation. We’ve had two ATM’s removed from their position here since the move because they pushed back against what thr FAA wanted when they could see how unrealistic it was with what is happening here. The current ATM hasn’t worked traffic since she was at Bismarck Tower, and thinks we are lying when we say the frequencies go out. We firmly believe that very soon the FAA will be telling managers to check people out that don’t even have recommendations from their trainers just because our staffing is about to be •ed when people start returning to N90 at the end of July, leaving us with net -3 certified controllers from when they moved us down here.

Sounds like the airline business.

We’ve lost two different leaders who pushed against convention and got things done. Now it’s “Why aren’t things getting done? How come no one wants to step up? Where are our risk takers? Why aren’t we more agile?”

 

[knot4u]

Re: The eternal silly 91/135 vs. 121 pursefights: Of COURSE 91/135 is "less safe". It's a totally different operation. The germane question is more like "given the differences in risk that are just baked into even asking the question in the first place, is 91/135 *relatively* more dangerous than one would expect, all other things being equal?" And, as per previous posts, my experience would suggest "sometimes yes, sometimes no, but more often yes than anyone should feel comfortable with".

I agree. I have zero experience in the 121 world but I have traveled the 91/135 paths. I've worked with LearJet operators with one airplane that are more buttoned up than the airline I flew in on. I've also seen the other end of that spectrum where it's obvious the hangar is going to fall down if that airplane doesn't make its next flight. I've spent time in the 145 world as well and customers can have wildly different mindsets from day to day, one customer might want EVERYTHING to be absolutely perfect and money is not an issue, the middle ground is always we don't need to repaint the airplane, just make sure it's running okay and deep clean the interior and then there are the bottom feeders. These are the folks that used to make the news nightly. NetJets is not a bottom feeder, they don't operate junk and the product they do offer is very well maintained. I have no idea what happened with this situation but a jet crashed and almost everyone lived, that's better than everyone dying. I will say I was disappointed about the dude with epaulettes climbing out first and running away.

 

[414driver]

I agree. I have zero experience in the 121 world but I have traveled the 91/135 paths. I've worked with LearJet operators with one airplane that are more buttoned up than the airline I flew in on. I've also seen the other end of that spectrum where it's obvious the hangar is going to fall down if that airplane doesn't make its next flight. I've spent time in the 145 world as well and customers can have wildly different mindsets from day to day, one customer might want EVERYTHING to be absolutely perfect and money is not an issue, the middle ground is always we don't need to repaint the airplane, just make sure it's running okay and deep clean the interior and then there are the bottom feeders. These are the folks that used to make the news nightly. NetJets is not a bottom feeder, they don't operate junk and the product they do offer is very well maintained. I have no idea what happened with this situation but a jet crashed and almost everyone lived, that's better than everyone dying. I will say I was disappointed about the dude with epaulettes climbing out first and running away.

Have you seen the whole 8 minute clip or just the short one? The first out were the 3 teenagers then the first officer. He runs out and looks like he is telling them to back up. He returns and attempts to climb back in at about 3 minutes in but looks like he is choking on smoke and maybe limping.

 

[knot4u]

Have you seen the whole 8 minute clip or just the short one? The first out were the 3 teenagers then the first officer. He runs out and looks like he is telling them to back up. He returns and attempts to climb back in at about 3 minutes in but looks like he is choking on smoke and maybe limping.

No. In the video I saw he jumped out first and ran away, but I wasn't wearing my spectacles. Please inform the people how the pilot is the hero.

 

[414driver]

No. In the video I saw he jumped out first and ran away, but I wasn't wearing my spectacles. Please inform the people how the pilot is the hero.

Not saying he was a hero. You just said you were disappointed he got out first and ran away. Video proves you were wrong. Maybe withhold judgement before talking badly about someone that was just in a plane crash and will have every move under a microscope.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I can't really tell who got out when. If the smoke is literally and rapidly killing you, I think "women and children first" or whatever kinda goes out the window. Can't do much to help if you're dead, and now you're something else the rescuers have to deal with.

Edit: Had I been the C/A, I like to think I would have tried to get the last passenger. And the cops would have stopped me. And they would have been right.

 

[DropTank]

Lots of vagueness and confusion on 91/135 tiers. Take the top 20 companies in the world with revenues higher than the GPD of most countries: 91 departments. They're not cutting corners with executive transport and often supplement their departments with reputable fractional and charters. Yet the assumption still remains that 91 and 135 equals cowboy, lol. Cannot speak too specifically but take for example a nuclear engineering firm with contracts all over the world. Their SMS system would, let's say, be very rigorous. Succession planning and exec security with these entities are very serious things.

The death of a CEO is a HUGE deal and can break a company or if they are REALLY lucky, set back progress by 6-18 months.

Many company policies forbid multiple C-levels in the same plane, forbid rotorcraft, prop driven aircraft, and dangerous activities.

Money comes first.

 

[Boris Badenov]

leaving us with net -3 certified controllers from when they moved us down here.

I'm hearing "no more EWR trip-trades, even if you think you might get displaced." Did I get that about right?

 

[414driver]

I can't really tell who got out when. If the smoke is literally and rapidly killing you, I think "women and children first" or whatever kinda goes out the window. Can't do much to help if you're dead, and now you're something else the rescuers have to deal with.

Edit: Had I been the C/A, I like to think I would have tried to get the last passenger. And the cops would have stopped me. And they would have been right.

In the 7:38 video you can see the teens get out at the 1 minute mark. The FO gets out at 1:20. He returns and looks like he attempts to get back in at 2:20. The capt is pulled out at around 3 minutes.

I would hope that I would try to get everyone out too. Hopefully I am never faced with that scenario.