AirlineApps: “Why Haven’t I Heard Anything”
- Thread starter derg
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🦈💜
Well-Known Member
I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'm trying to find a better way to say this. Have we considered the fact that somebody who might really want to be somewhere would not be a "cultural fit" (whatever that means?)
Why are we treating people's interview failures as if they're personal failures or work ethic failures, given that interviewers are theoretically hiring for a "cultural fit"? Why are we acting like they just messed something up and need to keep trying?
Further, what if someone isn't a "cultural fit" at any major airline? There are only a couple, and if you're not a "cultural fit" with those, you're permanently a B-lister.
I mean, that's life, right?
Box hauler
Well-Known Member
Personally I don’t feel like interview failures are personal failures. My #1 turned me down and I got my second choice. A friend of mine with nearly the same resume got the job I wanted and he was turned away by his first choice ( the place I got hired ). I spent over 9 years at what I thought was my forever home and it turned out it wasn’t meant to be. This business can be a real B sometimes.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Do you know what the term "mimetic desire" means? Something I try to tell all people (pilots or otherwise) is that you need to figure out what you *actually* want, not what other people that you admire want.
Mimetic theory - Wikipedia
This is addressed to you specifically (and this is something that I had to wrangle with for a long time during my flying career) that you might not actually *want* to be a pilot at Mainline? Like, you don't like what you're doing now - you like the flying of course (who doesn't, flying is awesome), but the schedule, the company, everything else is killing you. So you think, "there's all these amazing people off at BRAND X doing amazing things! I like those people, they're awesome, they look happy, and comfortable, and fulfilled! Are you certain that you would actually be happy if you got on at one of the "real job" shops? It reads like, "If *I* got the brass ring *I too* would be happy!" And I'm not saying you wouldn't to be clear nor am I trying to say that this is how you are, and this isn't judgment of any kind, but there are other options out there. Naturally you can't have it all and there's going to be tradeoffs, but with who you are would you even be happy other than the obvious monetary benefits?
Anyway, worth thinking about things like mimetic desire. Personally, I found that all the adulation of others mostly turned to ashes in my mouth along the way when I got it, and wildly, the most important contribution outside of my own family was an SIC program I set up at a 135 op like 6 years ago. Multiple people have started their careers out of that, like a kid who was a ramper in highschool there is now about to take his PIC checkride after working his way up. That means something - I am not entirely sure what, but that's something I'm proud of, and I just kind of did it to patch a hole... What truly makes you happy? What makes you happy in your work? Those things aren't going to necessarily be the same thing...
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
I am familiar! it has a partner, which is a desire for identity that is fulfilled by society. That is, "tell me what I am to be; give me an exemplar, O my kin, after which I shall model myself."
It's complicated, especially when you consider that one can actually choose one's wants at times. Sometimes you don't know what you want until you try it. But it's a valid question that everyone should ask themselves.
It's mostly the schedule. It's relentless, it's grueling. Today was an 18hr day, rife with mechanical delays, weather, flow and so on. And honestly, I'm hitting the point where I'm so burned out that the thought of going on a trip anywhere is unpleasant. Two days are ok, but three or four days? I don't want to be away from home that long. But then locals mean 14 hour days with min rest (10hrs from brake set to kcm beep), four or five days in a row. I've had better schedules here, but they're getting worse for almost everybody. (Except the mysterious people who somehow have a deal where they get summers off to crop dust or fly airshows . . . )
Personally, I'm very burnt out. I have to claw and fight and bite to have any life at all, at the expense of what is certain to be major medical issues in the future from lack of rest. (Not just sleep, but rest). I want trees around me, and cold, crisp air, and the sea. I want hockey to play, coffee to sip, and time to finish writing all the books in my series.
I would love to travel again. Not as work, but for any other reason (except commuting). Anyway, I digress.
I'm not driven by success. I just want to work less. Ideally a lot less. If I could do the job I'm doing right now, except work about 1/3 as much as I'm working, I'd be happy. As it is, I can't travel, take vacations, get any meaningful breaks, get doctors appointments, do the critical life things that maintain my health like playing and reffing hockey, and so on. My next two books have been stalled for years because I haven't had time to sit down and finish the edits in a single pass. Almost done, but that's still a long time.
I don't care about money. I just want enough to survive. Ideally have a house, or at least a little cabin in the woods with my mates.
I'm good at what I do. I love being an airline pilot, especially in the left seat. I love taking care of my crews, and passengers. I enjoy being able to deal with a maintenance issue, handle a passenger disturbance, and still get off the gate early; manage the flow of things to handle a complex taxi in ORD to the CDF, and wrangle a bunch of non-standard events into a standard, safe flow. Expanding the team, making sure that everybody has input—or at least insight—and coordinating with all parties to make giant clustered messes into smooth, on-time sailing. I love handflying from 20,000 with no autopilot, autothrottles or flight director to a smooth landing. It's all gravy. But I've got almost 5,000 hours in the 175. I'd love to fly other airplanes, other operations.
But to your question, what is it to be a BRAND X pilot? is it better pay, more time off, more quality of life? That's what's on the brochure. Fewer days with a bunch of legs, "a check that matches the paint." That's the dream, right?
In this case, I don't think I'm modeling people's lives so much as I am taking their word for it that things are night and day better at the majors.
It definitely is. I don't think it's the case for me. I never considered being an airline pilot particularly glamorous. I fell in love with TaleSpin, and the thought of being a tanker pilot. Even being a float pilot in Alaska. (My intro to Alaska flying was riding with a friend of mine for a week who was a pilot at Taquan in K-town when I visited him) Flying in Juneau was amazing, although I wasn't a fan of the level of risk we took flying on the bad days. But I had actually gotten into a rhythm by the end of my first winter. And time off in the winter was basically however long you wanted. But then the idiots running SeaPort decided to gut our dispatch and start sending inexperienced lower 48 pilots up in the summer, and things got wild (in a bad way), followed by an entirely predictable fatal accident.
But in the meanwhile, being in CASS and KCM for a few years, along with being on here, gave me an insight into the airlines that I hadn't had before, and I realized that it actually looked really fun. It became my dream job to fly for Alaska Airlines, although I wasn't sure I'd ever get there.
And I didn't.
But as time has gone on, my desires have changed a bit. After finding two amazing people to spend my life with, I just don't have the same willingness to be on the road all the time. And as that's happened, schedules have gotten worse and worse at my shop.
Honestly, that's about all I've got, myself. The only real impact I've made is on the union drive and mentoring all the FOs I flew with.
Plus, hopefully, giving anyone who walked on or off the airplane a role model for a "successful" trans person. But even then, I don't think I've really made a difference anywhere.
So treasure that.
Flying. Moving fast. Protecting and helping people. Being good at what I do. Playing hockey, reffing hockey, sitting in a nook, writing, while the rain falls outside.
Exploring. Hiking. Sailing.
Being free.
Indeed.
phill1174
Well-Known Member
Admittedly I didn’t read all the comments (too many adult beverages
), but have you thought about getting into the training center or pilot selection? I hate to ask under the circumstances because I know some people do these things to get away from bad schedules. I see it here at Brown, but is this something you’d be passionate about? Might help with the schedule dilemma. I’ll also say again, please don’t do it unless it’s something you’re passionate about.Also I can’t remember but what’s the “come see us again” status at my shop? I can’t help too much since they leave us line puke in the dark but I remember the base you were wondering about. Might not get it off the bat but if you really want to be here I’m happy to help.
phill1174
Well-Known Member
Meh I don’t necessarily agree but I sometimes see how it can feel that way. To progress takes work in this industry. I’m grateful for mentorship that said “he dumb dumb did you apple EVERYWHERE” and with a few weeks of prep and two zoom calls I ended up at Brown. Somewhere I hadn’t thought once about being at. The people are great and I fit in well with my peers. Will I stay, who knows
but a lot of it is about mentorship and timing. The rest is putting yourself in uncomfortable positions to move forward.This is giving “ok boomer” vibes and I’m not picking on you. I think most of it is perception and what they were exposed to. When I came into this industry I knew the upgrade time at my regional was going to be 8+yrs on the mighty deuce and 10+ if I wanted to fly JFK-SAT with fuel stops during the winter on the 900.
The current generation of pilots had a totally different perception. If I’d told someone I was going to be off to Delta within 1yr of starting at my regional they’d probably sent me off for a second drug test.
With all that being said I hope no one should experience the lost decade or post 9/11 seniority progression or furloughs. Those things aren’t a right of passage as much as some try to make them. Between 9/11 the lost decade and post Covid is a happy medium. Have we reached it? Idk
As far as research goes that’s only as good as the day you do it. Things change so quick in this industry which I’m sure you know that research hardly matters if you’re passionate about flying. Now if you’re looking for quick money all I can do is point you to the crypto bros.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
You’re really overthinking this…are you a safe pilot? Are you a caring pilot? Are you a dependable pilot?Cool…then you’re a cultural fit.
This isn’t a popularity contest nor is it high school politics. You’re doing something wrong in the interview process and instead of identifying that problem and trying to fix it, it’s just easier to blame the process.
I’m not trying to kick someone why they’re down, but every post I read of yours I think the same thing in the eyes of an interviewer. This person is miserable, not sure if they want to do the job, and maybe this isn’t the career for them. Are these attitudes coming out during the interview? Would us offering a job to this candidate change their attitude while they go back to the bottom of a seniority list?
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Underrated thought. We can choose a LOT more than people think we can. We can choose what we want, we can also consciously choose to change ourselves, etc. The will power to *do* things is a lot more powerful than people realize. Life is short, and there will be a point when you make your last flight, if you are not enjoying what you're doing, just change.
All the content above screams "go be a medevac pilot" to me, but it also screams, "go quit your job and go backpack for a bit" there's literally no better time than now.
Also, you may be similar to me. I liked flying with others, but I did not like being an FO. Co-captains (like in corporate) or captains in an operation was good. If you're equals it is one thing but I didn't like having to figure out what mask I was going to have to wear with whatever captain on whatever day. I detested that to be honest and while it was "fine" (it was not fine - it stressed me the hell out) if there were only 15 different captains or so, personally I think I would find an operation where I would seldom or never fly with the same person maddening. How would I learn them well enough? The flying would awesome, cool badass airplanes, and when you got a good captain it would be the BEST, but then you fly with an • or an unsafe person and you're trying to figure out the necessary psychology to get them to behave appropriately at FL230 or whatever. That sucked and I hated it. I don't really get how people tick, and frankly, years later, I realize that that is just a part of who I am. That's ok - there's probably a LOT of people out there who don't understand other people, but for whatever reason, for me, it is particularly bad. I strongly dislike not being able to "be myself" around others and a lot of the time I spent in the right seat or preparing for interviews was teaching myself how to act.
There were really only two places professionally that I found I could "be my self" in aviation. 135 air taxi stuff in AK (not even the lower 48 in general, but up here), and medevac. Those were the only "jobs" I really felt I fit in at. Even Big Evil Oil LLC - which was great - was not a place where I fit in. I did that for the compensation (and boy howdy was there compensation). It's OK though if you don't "make it" to the big leagues because (and this isn't cope) the big leagues for me don't look all that great anyway? Is it even worth having a job if the whole time I am at work I have to put on the "airline pilot persona" and can't be myself? At least for me? No I don't think so.
The only way to be free is to become "so free that your very existence is itself an act of rebellion" - you will not be doing that at a job where with a uniform that's locked behind a TSA screening checkpoint with twice yearly procedural training and a training department you are not in.
You will not do any exploring at a job where you never go any place "new."
You might be able to hike and sail on your days off.
You could write a book on your phone - a friend of mine wrote his book about an airplane crash and a missing person entirely on his iPhone while he waited on dispatch. Every time he had to wait on dispatch or the company he started clacking away at his book. You could do that I guess, but it certainly isn't going to be in an aesthetically pleasing nook in the trickling rain.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Fair.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
This is a really fair point - we do have agency to do a whole lot on our own. Outside of work, deciding what to learn, where to spend time, and what things we want to be better at. It's perfectly fine to change your mind, too.
In the last year or so, I could have waited for the phone to ring and complained about how crappy things are. That actually seemed like an option I might want, but I'm glad that I found other things to do. I'm almost done with a Master's degree, I've managed to move to another country, I did the ATP/CTP, got a USCG Captain's license, renovated a bathroom, and learned to speak a language -- at least well enough to fool some other immigrants. I still find some time to complain about how crappy things are, of course.
The years are going to tick by, whether we all try to make the changes we want or not.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Eh, the topic of the thread, to paraphrase, is "be happy you have a job..." Trust me, it ain't easy to get much of anything right now. I think it is on-topic, in this limited case.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Speaking of the post mortem of this one’s individuals interview experiences, over and over.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Wildly underrated.
Like... I am taking classes again. I quit the job I didn't like and started working for myself. I am building a cabin in the woods. I backpacked across Spain a few months ago.
I am not an airline pilot and I don't have that kind of money - but I *am* doing things. How? I choose to do them?
Normally I am a book completionist. If I start a book I *must* finish it. Last week I was slogging through a book on Korean Sijo's and said, "you know what, I thought this would be interesting, but it's not" I put the book down and I may never pick it back up. That's probably the first time I've ever done that and I'm close to 40 now. We can choose.
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
What about an “efficient” pilot?
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Anything interesting? A CS Master's mostly is not, if you already did the undergrad version. I'm torn between an MBA, or Electrical Engineering Master's next.
CFIT99
because of the implication...
wait it was increased?...what happened this time?