PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision

[MikeD]

Point being, it wasn't a high energy impact and the aircraft didn't incinerate itself after the impact with the ground. The mini liquor bottles in the serving carts survived unscathed. You don't typically see wreckage in this "good" of condition.

If not blunt force trauma, whether first/second/third impact, then likely drowning, for the fatalities. Either unconscious in their seats; or if they managed to survive, potentially couldn’t egress the wreckage? The Blackhawk was mostly intact and upside down in the shallow water, likely same fatality mechanisms.

 

[FlyingAccountant]

If not blunt force trauma, whether first/second/third impact, then likely drowning, for the fatalities. Either unconscious in their seats; or if they managed to survive, potentially couldn’t egress the wreckage? The Blackhawk was mostly intact and upside down in the shallow water, likely same fatality mechanisms.

Yeah, for their sake, I hope it was the impact and not the drowning.

 

[Maurus]

Link is working again. They took an item out of the docket.

 

[NovemberEcho]

ATC considers an altitude deviation to be 300’

Ehhhh this is a misunderstanding. We consider your mode c readout to be accurate if it differs less then 300’ from your reported altitude. So if you tell me you’re at 5000 but I see 5200, alls good. If you say you’re at 5000 but I see 5300, I say check your altitude and issue altimeter. If that doesn’t fix it I consider your mode c readout to be invalid and tell you recycle, if it’s still not right I’ll tell you to stop altitude squawk.

 

[Minuteman]

Check my understandings:

1. Transponders used to mostly report altitude in increments of 100 ft, but newer units, which are mostly-prevalent at this point, report in increments of 25 ft.
   
   
2. The encoded altitude is an uncorrected standard pressure altitude. Do ATC scopes apply a local correction to the value displayed, or do some days does a target at 5,000 ft just get displayed at, say, 5,700 ft?

 

[Fixtur]

Good question! I always wondered that.

 

[Wardogg]

Link is working again. They took an item out of the docket.

Which item?

 

[SteveC]

Check my understandings:

1. Transponders used to mostly report altitude in increments of 100 ft, but newer units, which are mostly-prevalent at this point, report in increments of 25 ft.
   
   
2. The encoded altitude is an uncorrected standard pressure altitude. Do ATC scopes apply a local correction to the value displayed, or do some days does a target at 5,000 ft just get displayed at, say, 5,700 ft?

Since I’m a (retired) pilot, I’m going to render an opinion with no actual confirmed knowledge, utilizing just my superior [something something something]: correction factor is auto-applied to their display.

 

[Lawman]

Check my understandings:

1. Transponders used to mostly report altitude in increments of 100 ft, but newer units, which are mostly-prevalent at this point, report in increments of 25 ft.
   
   
2. The encoded altitude is an uncorrected standard pressure altitude. Do ATC scopes apply a local correction to the value displayed, or do some days does a target at 5,000 ft just get displayed at, say, 5,700 ft?

Input accuracy depends over which mode of transmission what is or isn’t stripped to save on total bandwidth across the system.

Army Future Vertical Lift actually just spent a month examining the 1090ES (ads-b) to consider what velocities and information were effectively stripped or accepted latency in its transmission that had to be accounted for. This is part of an effort to allow for predictive algorithms of an AI tracking all the PLI data across the sky and predicting friction points. The multiple types of position data are being compiled to build and model the safety bubbles necessary to margin drones flying in the same spaces as manned aircraft.

We can give you stupid level track quality of any object, but as you add objects we have to dumb it down to fit it all into the total bandwidth of signal/sec cycles. What we end up with is limited both by the amount of data and the ability of a receiver to do anything with it.

 

[GolfChuck]

Since I’m a (retired) pilot, I’m going to render an opinion with no actual confirmed knowledge, utilizing just my superior [something something something]: correction factor is auto-applied to their display.

This is correct, the local altimeter is applied and the correct readout displays on the radar. However, certain versions of the Terminal radar allow for the user to manually enter the local altimeter, and if that is wrong, the scope will display wacky readouts. At the en route level the user cannot change the local altimeter to my knowledge.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Glancing through the docket, I cant find it, does anyone know of a picture / rendering of the aircraft/heli attitudes at collision? A pic of the points of contact?



Seems from the CVR that the PSA saw the heli but the heli had no audible reaction / didn’t see it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

A moment of zen (and/or levity) from today's hearing regarding ADS equipage.

Chairwoman Homendy is seriously crushing it this week.

 

[Minuteman]

It appears Chairperson Homendy got an upper-arm tattoo some time after appointment to the board.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Man, there's a lot of angry "do better" coming from the Board toward the FAA, even today. The specific ire of Member Inman using that expression just now was due to noncompliance with the FAA's own internal rules for post-event drug and alcohol testing of controllers.

Now getting into the SMS and 'systemic risk' panel, which is a perfect cue for me to get lunch and settle into a gentle food coma, aided by the sleep aid that is any discussion of SMS.

 

[Minuteman]

Van Nuys accounting for 7% of the system-wide TCAS RA’s is insane.

 

[nabbyfan]

Van Nuys accounting for 7% of the system-wide TCAS RA’s is insane.

It’s crazy that they know it’s an issue and we just pretend it’s not until the day the SWA on the ROKKR gets smacked and we do this whole song and dance, oh wow there were over 500 ATSAPS filed about this exact thing.

FAA can not in any real way say it’s a safety first organization. The “management” culture is just not wanting to answer any hard questions from anyone above them. I 100% believe if it came down to doing something knowingly unsafe, or having massive delays, FAA leadership will chose the unsafe operation every time. Add in the culture of screw up, move up that we have here and it’s a real mess.

I’m glad some of these FAA folks are getting embarrassed in this hearing. If people knew what was really happening on the front lines of the operation every day, there’d be a lot more of these hearings lol.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It’s crazy that they know it’s an issue and we just pretend it’s not until the day the SWA on the ROKKR gets smacked and we do this whole song and dance, oh wow there were over 500 ATSAPS filed about this exact thing.

FAA can not in any real way say it’s a safety first organization. The “management” culture is just not wanting to answer any hard questions from anyone above them. I 100% believe if it came down to doing something knowingly unsafe, or having massive delays, FAA leadership will chose the unsafe operation every time. Add in the culture of screw up, move up that we have here and it’s a real mess.

I’m glad some of these FAA folks are getting embarrassed in this hearing. If people knew what was really happening on the front lines of the operation every day, there’d be a lot more of these hearings lol.

One of the things that has really been tiring for me is any outfit that jawbones endlessly about a just, learning, reporting culture doing absolutely nothing with my safety reports, which I don't file merely because I may have screwed up, but are filed because I observed something that was unsafe. Otherwise you're just doing "teehee, this isn't punitive, thanks for reporting, teehee, your report will be used to enhance safety, teehee closed no further action." That's nice but it isn't the point.

Which, great, thanks for not retaliating, but it would be Real Nice if the reports went for their actual intended purpose, which isn't merely for waiver of sanction, but measuring, monitoring and mitigating unsafe conditions before they become smashed airplanes and funerals.

Whole vibe:

 

[GolfChuck]

It’s crazy that they know it’s an issue and we just pretend it’s not until the day the SWA on the ROKKR gets smacked and we do this whole song and dance, oh wow there were over 500 ATSAPS filed about this exact thing.

FAA can not in any real way say it’s a safety first organization. The “management” culture is just not wanting to answer any hard questions from anyone above them. I 100% believe if it came down to doing something knowingly unsafe, or having massive delays, FAA leadership will chose the unsafe operation every time. Add in the culture of screw up, move up that we have here and it’s a real mess.

I’m glad some of these FAA folks are getting embarrassed in this hearing. If people knew what was really happening on the front lines of the operation every day, there’d be a lot more of these hearings lol.

So you are saying its the circling maneuver that is the problem here? Because to me it looks like unsafe helicopter procedures in an overly congested area that is the problem. If the military needs to conduct this training they can do it at 3 am, not while the evening push is still ongoing.

 

[Roger Roger]

So you are saying its the circling maneuver that is the problem here? Because to me it looks like unsafe helicopter procedures in an overly congested area that is the problem. If the military needs to conduct this training they can do it at 3 am, not while the evening push is still ongoing.

Pretty sure the FAA could have acted on either or both of the elements.

 

[nabbyfan]

So you are saying its the circling maneuver that is the problem here? Because to me it looks like unsafe helicopter procedures in an overly congested area that is the problem. If the military needs to conduct this training they can do it at 3 am, not while the evening push is still ongoing.

No in the DCA case I fully agree. Ridiculous for the helicopters to be there when they were.

I’m just talking in a more general sense, IMO it’s not a safety first operation. The second we start asking for Flow or TMIs or delays to help us run the operation safely, we get pushback from our own TMU or the command center to just keep it running.