Stolen ATP Cessna 172 Crash

[Beep]

This x 1000.

I told our chief pilot this one day when he was venting about not being able to keep everyone happy. Pilots were steadily coming into his office and upset about how long it was taking to go from turboprops to jets, or make captain, or their pay, or how many hours they were flying, or whatever.

I told him to ask them what they expected. Hopefully he could either politely point out that their expectations had simply been made up in their minds with no basis in anything the company had ever promised, or maybe he'd learn that the company was promising things they couldn't deliver on and to be more careful about what's being told to new hires. Whatever the case, close that gap between expectations and reality.

I'll even do this to myself with random things in life. Super annoyed that my kid drew on the wall? Well, what did I expect, to have a kid that never messes anything up? That's not a realistic expectation with a three year old. It still sucks, but I can take a step back and remember that's life.

It also helps to have a true seniority system in place, that way friends of management/management pilots , and or people who just happen to be typed in ( insert airplane here ) can’t just come in from off the street and keep others pigeon holed in their current seat or aircraft, or seat and aircraft.
Operators may claim otherwise, but that is exactly what happens day in and out, month after month, year after year at 91 and 135 operators. It’s the nature of the beast, and with very few exceptions. Also, most of them don’t pay enough, or offer enough quality of life options for a lot of people to put up with it when they either have options, or their life/family situation changes to a point that they’d like to think of the future for more than themselves and the expectations of their employers.
Airplanes are expensive to own and operate no matter what type of operations are being conducted, and pilots tend to be our own worst enemy at times by rationalizing why we will just accept whatever is minimally acceptable at the moment.

I guess I should add that this is based on personal observations over the first 19 years of my flying career before going 121. So, no hard feelings, and it’s been a heck of a ride so far, but warts and all that’s my take on it.

 

[jrh]

It also helps to have a true seniority system in place, that way friends of management/management pilots , and or people who just happen to be typed in ( insert airplane here ) can’t just come in from off the street and keep others pigeon holed in their current seat or aircraft, or seat and aircraft.
Operators may claim otherwise, but that is exactly what happens day in and out, month after month, year after year at 91 and 135 operators. It’s the nature of the beast, and with very few exceptions. Also, most of them don’t pay enough, or offer enough quality of life options for a lot of people to put up with it when they either have options, or their life/family situation changes to a point that they’d like to think of the future for more than themselves and the expectations of their employers.
Airplanes are expensive to own and operate no matter what type of operations are being conducted, and pilots tend to be our own worst enemy at times by rationalizing why we will just accept whatever is minimally acceptable at the moment.

So...if you came to an operation like this, what would you be expecting?

 

[Beep]

So...if you came to an operation like this, what would you be expecting?

If it is in reference to employment and I needed the job, ie…. wasn’t willing to stay at current company any longer than I absolutely had to, if I was in a small market with small expectations and limited opportunities and not willing to move for personal reasons , and wasn’t doing enough contract flying to justify holding out for a better opportunity if I couldn’t negotiate and get in writing something that was acceptable to both parties then yes, I might rationalize why to take the position and do it until a better option was available.
But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t try to improve the situation while I was there, I’m not a proponent of sitting quietly until I have a better offer without trying to improve the current situation , then using that to force an employer to offer better pay and working conditions last moment to keep me from leaving.

If you’re talking about cost of living, again, compromise and personal sacrifices come in to play, and those will vary depending on the individual, their personal relationships, needs, etc. but as far as myself, I learned after my first aviation job that I would feel more comfortable living in a place with a larger market and more opportunities for pilots, roommates and less than glamorous living conditions were personally acceptable to me if cost of living where I was happened to be high ( because I was still young and single ). As experience was gained and pay and opportunities became better I still concentrated on staying in stronger aviation markets, but became more selective about employers, and QOL.
After being married, having a kid, then starting to seriously think of the future from a larger view than just myself I decided to go for the long term benefits of 121…. Still no guarantees, but in the 8 1/2 years I have been doing that I’d say that even though I personally enjoyed the previous flying and some of the fun times a little bit more, I enjoy not having to dedicate as much of my life to trivial stuff to meet the personal expectations of others ( employers, passengers, etc ) and more to my own and my families futures.

 

[jrh]

If it is in reference to employment and I needed the job, ie…. wasn’t willing to stay at current company any longer than I absolutely had to, if I was in a small market with small expectations and limited opportunities and not willing to move for personal reasons , and wasn’t doing enough contract flying to justify holding out for a better opportunity if I couldn’t negotiate and get in writing something that was acceptable to both parties then yes, I might rationalize why to take the position and do it until a better option was available.
But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t try to improve the situation while I was there, I’m not a proponent of sitting quietly until I have a better offer without trying to improve the current situation , then using that to force an employer to offer better pay and working conditions last moment to keep me from leaving.

If you’re talking about cost of living, again, compromise and personal sacrifices come in to play, and those will vary depending on the individual, their personal relationships, needs, etc. but as far as myself, I learned after my first aviation job that I would feel more comfortable living in a place with a larger market and more opportunities for pilots, roommates and less than glamorous living conditions were personally acceptable to me if cost of living where I was happened to be high ( because I was still young and single ). As experience was gained and pay and opportunities became better I still concentrated on staying in stronger aviation markets, but became more selective about employers, and QOL.
After being married, having a kid, then starting to seriously think of the future from a larger view than just myself I decided to go for the long term benefits of 121…. Still no guarantees, but in the 8 1/2 years I have been doing that I’d say that even though I personally enjoyed the previous flying and some of the fun times a little bit more, I enjoy not having to dedicate as much of my life to trivial stuff to meet the personal expectations of others ( employers, passengers, etc ) and more to my own and my families futures.

Cool, that all sounds reasonable.

I thought you might be going down the path of signing up for a job knowing exactly what you're getting into, then complaining about said job once you're there.

That's something I can't stand and won't hesitate to call out if it comes up. Years ago I worked with a guy constantly whining about not being paid well enough. Finally I said, "Bro, did they not tell you what you'd get paid when you took the job? Why did you take a job if you can't pay your bills with it?!?"

I'm pretty sure he considered me a huge • moving forward, but at least I didn't hear him whining anymore.

 

[Fixtur]

That's all fine and well when the company sets expectations accurately.

My experience has been generally that the expectations set by a hiring board don't usually line up with the reality of company lore and mythos. Is use these words instead of "policy" because policies are usually written down.

 

[Roger Roger]

Unless you have a union contract with pay raises built in, you’ll take a pay cut to inflation every year that you don’t get a raise. In my experience longevity and COL adjustments at non-union shops are random and totally at the whim of upper management, and are usually reactive in that they don’t enact them until way too late when the good people have already left. Another fun non-union trick is to bring in new talent at a higher rate than loyal employees because hey, loyal employee is already here but we can’t get anyone in the door for what we’re paying him. The old saw about the best way to get a raise in 91/135 is to quit, is deeply rooted in reality

 

[Roger Roger]

Another counter point to the “They knew what they signed up for!” Thing is that things change. To use a personal example, when I started at the last job I was flying less than 300 hours a year, vast majority of it on day shift, almost never more than 1 trip in a day, and almost always made it back home at the end of a shift. Had lots of time to work on house projects, side protects, or just hang out watching movies, napping, practicing frisbee golf etc. fast forward through COVID and the subsequent health care system house of cards collapse, now as a Lear captain i flew 450 hours in the year before I left, with night shift being the busier shift, doubleheaders, getting stuck out all the time for duty or weather. Still loved it, but long term it was not what I had signed up for.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I'm not in the same boat as you but I've had my own rough ride.

My "career" has taken so many detours that I'll be very lucky to retire as a regional CA, and I'll never make it to the big show.

We had a 63 year old in my new hire class. There’s still time.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Lower middle class has been redefined as poor largely due to the pressure or decision to live beyond one’s means.

Growing up in the 70’s and 80’s in military towns, most of my peers lived in small 3 bed/2 bath houses owned by their parents. You could still buy 2 bed, 1-1.5 bath starter homes. The majority of houses didn’t have garages. Most of the lots were a quarter acre or less.

It’s very tough to compare apples to apples when comparing eras.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Fax, no printer.

You all about that fax, bout that fax, no printer.


Don’t lie. You know what voice you heard that in

 

[Roger Roger]

Lower middle class has been redefined as poor largely due to the pressure or decision to live beyond one’s means.

Growing up in the 70’s and 80’s in military towns, most of my peers lived in small 3 bed/2 bath houses owned by their parents. You could still buy 2 bed, 1-1.5 bath starter homes. The majority of houses didn’t have garages. Most of the lots were a quarter acre or less.

It’s very tough to compare apples to apples when comparing eras.

A lot of that kind of housing is illegal to build in the areas where we’ve expanded housing the most. Suburban developments with ludicrous setback rules, no outdoor or on street parking allowed, single family zoning etc, even down to well-intentioned but overzealous laws about how to build staircases. I know exactly what you’re talking about, my parent’s neighborhood has lots of small, 2 story plus a basement houses with maybe a driveway in back to an alley packed in close to each other, but they’d never meet zoning rules etc in a modern subdivision and I bet they wouldn’t fit on the lot if you built the staircases to modern code.

And I won’t even go into how much space for housing we’ve lost by making driving the default for getting everywhere.

 

[Beaker]

I might be moving to San Antonio. I'd love to ask here for any advice regarding anything about it but I don't trust 98% of replies on a site made up of pilots. Makes me sad, but it's true. I'd have to verify every single thing any response might tell me because I'd be afraid of someone trying to hamstring me and I'd be screwed. It's got to better than LA right?

I lived there for a few years. At the moment I am still more engineer than pilot, so take my response as you will.

First, shocking honesty from this born and raised Texan who has also lived in California. If San Antonio and SoCal were magically the same price, I have to say that SoCal is objectively better on many metrics, such as immediate access to mountains, ocean, and great weather. I enjoyed my time in California for all of those reasons.

However, they are not the same price. Coastal California is expensive and can feel crowded, because everyone else knows it's great, too. San Antonio, and other cities in Texas, offer a good quality of life at a more reasonable price, particularly if you are raising a family. The north / northwest side of SA is a nice enough suburban area to settle down in. If you can afford it, the Alamo Heights / Broadway area brings you closer in to the city amenities. All of these places are a relatively short drive from the main airport. You have access to most of the creature comforts you might be used to in a big city, but SA is not that large, so you can get wherever you need to go within 20 minutes. It can have a big small town feel. It is a car-dependent city, but I have to imagine traffic is a drastically reduced worry compared to LA.

Like Austin, it neighbors the Texas Hill Country, so if you like the outdoors there are some outlets in the form of city, county, and state parks. Hills are 200-400 feet of elevation change, which is nice for exercise. But this is nothing like the mountains and natural areas that you have access to in California. Mild falls, winters, and springs are great for such activities. Summer is uncomfortably hot and getting hotter.

Austin, the trendier city, is 1.5 hours up the highway for when you want to take a day trip somewhere. Port Aransas and the Texas coast are convenient for weekend beach trips, as that is only 2.5-3 hours away by car.

San Antonio is a bilingual town that is heavily influenced by Mexican-American culture. Plenty of Tex-Mex awaits you. But aside from this obvious multicultural element, it is less diverse than Dallas and Houston. Dallas and Houston have people from all over the world and the excellent food choices that come with that, similar to LA. San Antonio, not so much.

If this is a change you are seriously considering, I recommend that you spend a couple of weekends in SA checking it out before pulling the trigger. It is enough of a culture shock compared to big-city California that you should try before you buy.

I decided to move to Dallas after my time in SA. Family was a big consideration, but I also like the better concentration of family-oriented services and parks, and greater cultural diversity, in the `burb where I live now compared to where I lived in SA. All that being said, it's a fine place to "do Texas", if you're up for it

 

[CFI A&P]

You did LOOK at the cities on your list, right?

Also, it’s incredibly arrogant to imply that only certain trades deserve to afford housing. The people who make your coffee or your cocktails, scan your groceries, etc should be able to afford housing too.

Also, while I’m on this tangent, we insist that people should just move where the jobs and the affordable housing are, and wonder why we have so much trouble with loneliness and disconnectedness.

A friend’s daughter works for an apartment management company that has an obligation to provide 25% of their units as affordable. She lives in one of their complexes as a tenant that meets the low income threshold….

 

[Roger Roger]

A friend’s daughter works for an apartment management company that has an obligation to provide 25% of their units as affordable. She lives in one of their complexes as a tenant that meets the low income threshold….

Airline employees get free standby travel and discounts on regular fares. Seems like it oughtta be the same for a property management firm…

 

[jrh]

Unless you have a union contract with pay raises built in, you’ll take a pay cut to inflation every year that you don’t get a raise. In my experience longevity and COL adjustments at non-union shops are random and totally at the whim of upper management, and are usually reactive in that they don’t enact them until way too late when the good people have already left. Another fun non-union trick is to bring in new talent at a higher rate than loyal employees because hey, loyal employee is already here but we can’t get anyone in the door for what we’re paying him. The old saw about the best way to get a raise in 91/135 is to quit, is deeply rooted in reality

Absolutely true.

The only thing I can add to this is that unions don't work well in small (sub-100) businesses because they're just too cumbersome. I'm fairly pro-union, but not when it comes to small operations. It would cause the operation to collapse during downturns because pockets typically aren't deep enough and negotiations don't go quickly enough to react to changing circumstances.

So it's better to go into these operations knowing it is what it is rather than trying to unionize.

 

[jrh]

Another counter point to the “They knew what they signed up for!” Thing is that things change. To use a personal example, when I started at the last job I was flying less than 300 hours a year, vast majority of it on day shift, almost never more than 1 trip in a day, and almost always made it back home at the end of a shift. Had lots of time to work on house projects, side protects, or just hang out watching movies, napping, practicing frisbee golf etc. fast forward through COVID and the subsequent health care system house of cards collapse, now as a Lear captain i flew 450 hours in the year before I left, with night shift being the busier shift, doubleheaders, getting stuck out all the time for duty or weather. Still loved it, but long term it was not what I had signed up for.

I don't blame you a bit for moving on.

Just curious, did your operation make any promises to you when hired that they didn't follow through on?

This goes back to setting expectations. When I started at my company they told me I'd be captain on a jet, I'd work 15-17 days/month, and spend 8-10 nights/months in a hotel. They specifically didn't make any promises about how many legs per day I'd fly, or when I'd get raises, or how promotions are decided, or anything else.

Those things are on me to figure out. They've held up their end of the bargain every step of the way. If I'm grumpy about flying too many legs or not moving into the bigger jets or whatever, that's not the company doing anything shady, that's life changing. I might decide to quit, but I won't be upset that I'd somehow been screwed by the company. They gave me exactly what I expected.

 

[CFI A&P]

Airline employees get free standby travel and discounts on regular fares. Seems like it oughtta be the same for a property management firm…

Maybe there are arrangements that I’m not aware of, but smaller motels and storage facilities have that. Live on property for free, but you’re tied to those businesses for income and housing.

 

[form810]

Man dead after stolen plane crashes along Texas-Oklahoma border

The man stole the plane from Addison Airport on Wednesday and flew it 80 miles northeast before it crashed, officials said.

www.nbcnews.com

"About right now you'll probably realize that I’m not going to listen to y’all's instructions and I’m just heading to East Texas," he said, according to ATC recordings obtained by NBC News. "I’m going to pull the comm 1 circuit breaker and the comm 2 circuit breaker right here soon, as soon as I unkey the mic."

Wow! He must have at least been smarter than your average pilot these days. Though it does seem he had the typical new pilot issues with the compass and headings, he at least knew what "comms" were, that there was more than one of them, and how to pull their respective CBs. So, you know, he's got THAT going for him. In the words of Ferris Bueller, "Never had one [Systems] lesson!"

Kinda gives "Fly it like you stole it" a whole new definition.

 

[form810]

Boomer status validated. Cloud 9, I am on.

Employing Yoda-Speek does not serve your cause here. Just sayin'...

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Employing Yoda-Speek does not serve your cause here. Just sayin'...

A quick google search seems to prove me right…?