Next Up in the RLA Conga Line

I am not surprised by the outcome. Thought it would be 60-65 range however. The younger more Facebook using crowd was probably 95% against this online. More junior pilots had more to gain by waiting, lesser retro to think about and a longer career to wait it out. Older crowd had substantial retro pay out on their way to retirement plus a good long term disability gain.

I'm not surprised it passed. I am surprised it passed by such a significant margin. Most of the guys and gals I fly with are pretty close to retirement and were yes voters. By no means am I a chest thumper, but I was (and am) firmly against the deal. People wanted to know why I voted against and my main reason was no change to our trip trade system. There are others like I'd like an extra hour of sick per month, another day off on reserve 9 months out of the year, and guaranteed better DH seats. I think these were easy wins if it got voted down.

As far as our trip trade system is concerned, it's pretty locked down right now. I had mostly two day trips on weekdays in June and was only able to trade one trip. The rest either couldn't be traded or could only be traded for four or five day trips with trailing redeyes. I think that will be relaxed slightly after the summer is over, but if you are junior and can only hold four or five day trips is is very little flexibility with your schedule.

Interestingly when I ask the yes voters what they saw that they really liked it's the money and LTD. I haven't heard anyone list any other gain, not one single one. I do feel there are some gains, but am also concerned we got outplayed and outmatched by the company. Apparently there is already some confusion between RA/RO/25 coding. And I see sections that say at the company's discretion in the contract. We all know how well that usually plays out.

I was disappointed, but no means am I bitter. I've already moved on and am attempting to learn the new contract and implementation dates as best as possible.
 
I'm not surprised it passed. I am surprised it passed by such a significant margin. Most of the guys and gals I fly with are pretty close to retirement and were yes voters. By no means am I a chest thumper, but I was (and am) firmly against the deal. People wanted to know why I voted against and my main reason was no change to our trip trade system. There are others like I'd like an extra hour of sick per month, another day off on reserve 9 months out of the year, and guaranteed better DH seats. I think these were easy wins if it got voted down.

As far as our trip trade system is concerned, it's pretty locked down right now. I had mostly two day trips on weekdays in June and was only able to trade one trip. The rest either couldn't be traded or could only be traded for four or five day trips with trailing redeyes. I think that will be relaxed slightly after the summer is over, but if you are junior and can only hold four or five day trips is is very little flexibility with your schedule.

Interestingly when I ask the yes voters what they saw that they really liked it's the money and LTD. I haven't heard anyone list any other gain, not one single one. I do feel there are some gains, but am also concerned we got outplayed and outmatched by the company. Apparently there is already some confusion between RA/RO/25 coding. And I see sections that say at the company's discretion in the contract. We all know how well that usually plays out.

I was disappointed, but no means am I bitter. I've already moved on and am attempting to learn the new contract and implementation dates as best as possible.
Money, money, override pays, LTD gains, DH gains (upgrade list will be big plus more access to seat map), Standups, trip mix protections, Increase pay for reassignments, more premium pay scales. Cant think of any more of top of my head. Trip trading was a big miss but wasnt even being asked, although the "heat map" should help some. Electro notification a big wildcard. At the end of the day, its all a gamble and if some felt it was worth the risk to continue to seek more. Some felt it was, others not.
 
Money, money, override pays, LTD gains, DH gains (upgrade list will be big plus more access to seat map), Standups, trip mix protections, Increase pay for reassignments, more premium pay scales. Cant think of any more of top of my head. Trip trading was a big miss but wasnt even being asked, although the "heat map" should help some. Electro notification a big wildcard. At the end of the day, its all a gamble and if some felt it was worth the risk to continue to seek more. Some felt it was, others not.

The money was going to be there if it passed or not.

I agree with LTD.

The DH gains are there, but trail our peers. Typically when I'm assigned a DH it's at the last minute on a reassignment or reserve sequence and business class or premium economy seats are gone. I won't disagree that if it's an improvement over what we had. Interestingly enough we used to have access to the seat map and the company took it away.

I absolutely despise standups, especially getting them on reserve. I think you'll see many of them in open time. I flew them in a past life and I'd say about 50% of the people I flew with were on reserve. Personally I think they're worse than redeyes, but one man's trash is another man's treasure.

I was reassigned yesterday and under the new contract the reassignment pays exactly 5 minutes more than what it would have under the old contract. And I missed dinner with my cousin and his fiancee in San Antonio last night. I do think the company will try harder to get pilots back on their sequences to avoid paying 150% and 200%. On the employee bus I spoke with a crew that was RA. A delay caused them to miss their last DH which was the last flight of the day. Since the delay is considered a MIC it was coded as RO, which isn't subject to 200% pay. They called tracking and spoke with a supervisor and they wouldn't budge. Didn't take the company long to figure that out. I also don't believe 200% RA pay has been implemented but need to check. Either way they didn't get 150% for the RO that was caused by a RA.

We already have variable PM. It's at the company's option. I'm in the largest bid status at the airline and since the Green July debacle we've had exactly zero 200% sequences. Zero. The new variable PM is also a company option. A huge miss. It should be tied to TTS and reserve coverage. If pilots can't trade or drop their sequences we should start moving up the PM scale. But like you said that wasn't negotiated.

I agree on the electronic notification. The chest thumpers in the Facebook forums are up in arms over this. It was coming like it or not because it was in the JCBA. But basically we voted on a contract that has notes on what the system will look like and how it will function. Yikes!

There are other gains like increased training pay, more holidays subject to holiday pay and now it's not just time flown, and a few others.

As you know we had so many lagging areas in our contract we simply had too much ground to improve. Interestingly enough we flew through EWR the other day and I went into the terminal to get a coffee. Every single United pilot I saw had on a contract now lanyard and tag on their bag or suitcase. Walking through our hubs I saw It's Time, American Airlines, APA, and AA Pilots for ALPA lanyards. Or no lanyard at all. Just my somewhat related observation.
 
The money was going to be there if it passed or not.

I agree with LTD.

The DH gains are there, but trail our peers. Typically when I'm assigned a DH it's at the last minute on a reassignment or reserve sequence and business class or premium economy seats are gone. I won't disagree that if it's an improvement over what we had. Interestingly enough we used to have access to the seat map and the company took it away.

I absolutely despise standups, especially getting them on reserve. I think you'll see many of them in open time. I flew them in a past life and I'd say about 50% of the people I flew with were on reserve. Personally I think they're worse than redeyes, but one man's trash is another man's treasure.

I was reassigned yesterday and under the new contract the reassignment pays exactly 5 minutes more than what it would have under the old contract. And I missed dinner with my cousin and his fiancee in San Antonio last night. I do think the company will try harder to get pilots back on their sequences to avoid paying 150% and 200%. On the employee bus I spoke with a crew that was RA. A delay caused them to miss their last DH which was the last flight of the day. Since the delay is considered a MIC it was coded as RO, which isn't subject to 200% pay. They called tracking and spoke with a supervisor and they wouldn't budge. Didn't take the company long to figure that out. I also don't believe 200% RA pay has been implemented but need to check. Either way they didn't get 150% for the RO that was caused by a RA.

We already have variable PM. It's at the company's option. I'm in the largest bid status at the airline and since the Green July debacle we've had exactly zero 200% sequences. Zero. The new variable PM is also a company option. A huge miss. It should be tied to TTS and reserve coverage. If pilots can't trade or drop their sequences we should start moving up the PM scale. But like you said that wasn't negotiated.

I agree on the electronic notification. The chest thumpers in the Facebook forums are up in arms over this. It was coming like it or not because it was in the JCBA. But basically we voted on a contract that has notes on what the system will look like and how it will function. Yikes!

There are other gains like increased training pay, more holidays subject to holiday pay and now it's not just time flown, and a few others.

As you know we had so many lagging areas in our contract we simply had too much ground to improve. Interestingly enough we flew through EWR the other day and I went into the terminal to get a coffee. Every single United pilot I saw had on a contract now lanyard and tag on their bag or suitcase. Walking through our hubs I saw It's Time, American Airlines, APA, and AA Pilots for ALPA lanyards. Or no lanyard at all. Just my somewhat related observation.
I think we can agree on all those things. I just have/had no faith apa had the creativity or ability to do better in the areas that were most important.
 
Equivalent safety my butt.

Northernjets had them. People only remember the "good ones". The trips to Flint that had a hotel on the airport and 7:55 rest. No one wants to talk about the majority, which were stinkers that went to EWR and you had, at best, 4:00 in the hotel bookended by, well, EWR drama. 117 polished those off the good ones. Now the over night FDPs are so short, you will never get more than a nap.

There are other issues, but I'll leave it at that.
 
We basically do them at my shop. Fly out to Fairbanks and turn back. Its 7+ hours of flying with an hour turn at the backside of the clock. The worst one is Juneau which has a 2 hour sit. That one only pays 5 hours but is equally soul crushing as ANC or FAI.
 
We basically do them at my shop. Fly out to Fairbanks and turn back. Its 7+ hours of flying with an hour turn at the backside of the clock. The worst one is Juneau which has a 2 hour sit. That one only pays 5 hours but is equally soul crushing as ANC or FAI.
The one that gets in at like 0100 and leaves at like 0200?
 
We basically do them at my shop. Fly out to Fairbanks and turn back. Its 7+ hours of flying with an hour turn at the backside of the clock. The worst one is Juneau which has a 2 hour sit. That one only pays 5 hours but is equally soul crushing as ANC or FAI.
Section 25 A. 1. a) of the Spirit CBA doesn't prohibit such things outright—I flew quite a few jungle turns, especially as a reserve FO—but it certainly puts a restraint on just how dog-poopy they can be (must be scheduled to depart at or before "I forget" on the second leg) along with the much stricter overnight hours of service limits.
 
I'm not surprised it passed. I am surprised it passed by such a significant margin. Most of the guys and gals I fly with are pretty close to retirement and were yes voters. By no means am I a chest thumper, but I was (and am) firmly against the deal. People wanted to know why I voted against and my main reason was no change to our trip trade system. There are others like I'd like an extra hour of sick per month, another day off on reserve 9 months out of the year, and guaranteed better DH seats. I think these were easy wins if it got voted down.

As far as our trip trade system is concerned, it's pretty locked down right now. I had mostly two day trips on weekdays in June and was only able to trade one trip. The rest either couldn't be traded or could only be traded for four or five day trips with trailing redeyes. I think that will be relaxed slightly after the summer is over, but if you are junior and can only hold four or five day trips is is very little flexibility with your schedule.

Interestingly when I ask the yes voters what they saw that they really liked it's the money and LTD. I haven't heard anyone list any other gain, not one single one. I do feel there are some gains, but am also concerned we got outplayed and outmatched by the company. Apparently there is already some confusion between RA/RO/25 coding. And I see sections that say at the company's discretion in the contract. We all know how well that usually plays out.

I was disappointed, but no means am I bitter. I've already moved on and am attempting to learn the new contract and implementation dates as best as possible.
everything you said is a legitimate argument ...90% of the guys I fly with are within 5 years of retirement and wanted to get paid, no one blames them.

I'm a new guy but I wasn't disappointed because based on what I heard, this is the best the APA was gonna get...that organization is more corrupt than an abortion clinic while wearing a MAGA hat at A FIFA meeting...
 
We basically do them at my shop. Fly out to Fairbanks and turn back. Its 7+ hours of flying with an hour turn at the backside of the clock. The worst one is Juneau which has a 2 hour sit. That one only pays 5 hours but is equally soul crushing as ANC or FAI.
That’s all I saw in CA open time in SEA last year. Thank goodness I never got assigned a redeye turn. They sound like hell.

Edit to add: looks like they’re still around 😬

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Section 25 A. 1. a) of the Spirit CBA doesn't prohibit such things outright—I flew quite a few jungle turns, especially as a reserve FO—but it certainly puts a restraint on just how dog-poopy they can be (must be scheduled to depart at or before "I forget" on the second leg) along with the much stricter overnight hours of service limits.

I’m pretty sure the only time in the 90 year history of my airline that anyone did anything to benefit junior pilots was last week. They bumped the payscale up for everyone. My pay went up 34$ an hour and new hires 10$

Anytime I suggest changing things to help new FOs and stop attrition I usually get an answer that involves life is hard and time to get tough. That’s how we roll at this airline etc.

Like maybe people would stop leaving if we didn’t but ok…


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That’s all I saw in CA open time in SEA last year. Thank goodness I never got assigned a redeye turn. They sound like hell.

Edit to add: looks like they’re still around 😬

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You are so lucky you didn't get assigned those constantly. I bet you left SEA before April when 3rd step kicked in. It's made life on the line for the very junior a hellish existence of constant red eyes. Since that is all that is left over in open time. Also the people that bid for it think it's great until they realize the reality then there are a lot of sick calls on the backside of the clock.

I was on red eye reserve and all I got was those turns for a whole month. I was wrecked but at least these days I have a solid place to sleep. The dudes around 3200-3300 don't have such options generally and are doing that kind of schedule out of a crash pad or worse.
 
That’s all I saw in CA open time in SEA last year. Thank goodness I never got assigned a redeye turn. They sound like hell.

Edit to add: looks like they’re still around 😬

So... my shop has these. Redeye turns... they should be called Graveyard Turns. We also have a carve-out in our working agreement that the normal 'average daily guarantee' doesn't apply to them. So even though they span two calendar days, it only pays the same that a bankers-hours turn would pay. (except for the WOCL override - which nowhere near makes up for the days-long recovery that occurs from being up all night long, oh and the added bonus of doing that 2nd leg.)

They tend to come and go - depending on the pairing build. (And a rash of fatigue calls. Etc. Etc.)

There would be a humane way to schedule this type of flying, with consistency, and appropriate overrides. (through line bidding and reserve coverage that isn't expected to do constant circadian flips.) But, it just doesn't fit with the PBS model of pilot-schedule creation. Which puts low cost above all.

Good luck, it's only gonna get worse because PBS will just drop these randomly on your perfectly good schedule like a pigeon with a stomach full of Del Taco.
 
So... my shop has these. Redeye turns... they should be called Graveyard Turns. We also have a carve-out in our working agreement that the normal 'average daily guarantee' doesn't apply to them. So even though they span two calendar days, it only pays the same that a bankers-hours turn would pay. (except for the WOCL override - which nowhere near makes up for the days-long recovery that occurs from being up all night long, oh and the added bonus of doing that 2nd leg.)

They tend to come and go - depending on the pairing build. (And a rash of fatigue calls. Etc. Etc.)

There would be a humane way to schedule this type of flying, with consistency, and appropriate overrides. (through line bidding and reserve coverage that isn't expected to do constant circadian flips.) But, it just doesn't fit with the PBS model of pilot-schedule creation. Which puts low cost above all.

Good luck, it's only gonna get worse because PBS will just drop these randomly on your perfectly good schedule like a pigeon with a stomach full of Del Taco.

We have the same carve out but no WOCL override…


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