Challenger 300 Turbulence Death - Prelim Released

[KLB]

Have you flown into Truckee?

He has not and it is very obvious.

Yup. As a part 91 operator myself, what was it that these guys missed that a 121 carrier would have caught? If they are the gold standard of safety what would have a 121 adhered to that these guys didn't that would have prevented the mishap? No circling approaches? It's also what got the guys at Truckee.

The only difference is 121 operators have parameters in place that would have made this procedure illegal in the opspec/GOM while this 135 operater has it as a perfectly legal manuever. Those pilots weren't being cowboys like CC has tried to make them out to be.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

That’s why I said, I believe they can. I don’t do that flying. From my OE trip through SE in crap ass weather in a November, I did RNPs to every SE airport that trip. I wasn’t gonna cancel something and attempt a VFR approach.


You’re a CA now. LET your FO tell you that you are a “problem” for not being cancelling IFR. Who GAF. You’re talking, at best, a FEW minutes added to the flight. Or at best, 10-25 minutes someone else may have to wait for you to arrive/depart. Not. My. Problem.


The accident record doesn’t show the slow, patient pilot. It shows the hurried/quick, cancel IFR, and hold my beer as we crank and bank this one right in types. No thank you. And zero ego hurt when a FO feels like I should have cancelled IFR. No we are not. Sorry if that added a few minutes to your day. Actually, I’m not sorry. If you are a 2018 or earlier hire, you could be a CA. Go upgrade if you feel so strongly about it. Me? If I was SEA? I would make my experiment in SE clear and tell them up front I ain’t cancelling IFR. And we are doing RNPs to each one.

I agree with all of this. This is outstanding. Unfortunately, this is not reflective of the mindset of many CA who fly in SE Alaska. Which is why I keep saying that no organization is exempt from always self evaluating their safety culture. Even NASA.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'll throw out two factors, which I think are of approximately equal significance.

1) The "culture" (for wont of a better word) in 91/135/whatever-isn't-an-airline is just way more permissive. By necessity (and I mean that in both senses, they're smaller and must be more flexible in a myriad of ways, but also they don't have the same level of oversight and therefore must compete, on some level, with similar operators...even in 91, someone is watching the bottom line like a hawk).

2) The flying is *radically* more varied. In every way. Not just where you go, when you get there, etc., but also a million other little variables. Things like "how do I get fuel", "where (if not under the wing) are we going to sleep", and even things you wouldn't initially think of, like "are our phones going to work there?"

95% of my headaches as a 135 jet El Capitan were basically administrative.

Anyway, point being, of *course* 91/135 is statistically less "safe" (within the confines in which "not crashing" = safety, but nevermind), in the aggregate. Even as a *thought experiment* it would be, let alone the clown-show reality of people just messing up (self included). It will never be otherwise, because you simply can't realistically fly with the same strictures as 121 and have anyone continue to pay for the service.

That doesn't mean that it's intrinsically "unsafe" (whatever that means, wherever you set the bar). I stronkly suspect that flying around in the back of a 135/91 jet is still WAY safer than sharing the roads with people like the Toddler, who just park in the left lane and *invite* road-rage in an adolescent fit of pique.

But, anyway, these member-measuring contests are absurd. Girls, you're both pretty.

 

[derg]

Counter point:

I've been studying for the 737 systems test for over a month now. Memorizing the items on the A and B hydraulic system.

They are listed in the QRH when you run a checklist for a hydraulic system issue. So why memorize them?

Personally I'd rather have pilots that didn't work from memory under a stressful situation and methodically and calmly ran a checklist. But I realize my opinion has zero value and I know nothing...

We have like five or six memory items at SouthernJets, probably 90% of them are "put on your oxygen mask before you asphyxiate y'self, moron"

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

We have like five or six memory items at SouthernJets, probably 90% of them are "put on your oxygen mask before you asphyxiate y'self, moron"

Yeah but your checklists. Dude!


There’s one that’s literally at 18,000 ft that says altimeters standard 29.92 and crosschecked. Checklist complete. I’ve jumpseated on all the big boys upfront, I think I’d be comfortable to say that Delta has the most/longest checklists.

 

[mikecweb]

Yeah but your checklists. Dude!


There’s one that’s literally at 18,000 ft that says altimeters standard 29.92 and crosschecked. Checklist complete. I’ve jumpseated on all the big boys upfront, I think I’d be comfortable to say that Delta has the most/longest checklists.

We do that.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

We do that.

Sir, we were talking about Commercial pilots.

Thank you

 

[mikecweb]

Sir, we were talking about Commercial pilots.

Thank you

Ok

 

[BobDDuck]

Yeah but your checklists. Dude!


There’s one that’s literally at 18,000 ft that says altimeters standard 29.92 and crosschecked. Checklist complete. I’ve jumpseated on all the big boys upfront, I think I’d be comfortable to say that Delta has the most/longest checklists.

You'd be wrong.

That's not surprising of course.

CAVOK (or maybe it was one of the other consulting firms) did a study on it a few years ago. American had the most items on their checklists.

My shop has an item at transition level and transition altitude as well. Remember, the little domestic bubble you fly in is a very small part of the world, and in lots of places those things don't occur at 18,000 so having a checklist item to make sure you remember to swap over is pretty important.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Yeah, they did. I barely started to say a potential green on green when JC melted down.



Part 91/135 Corpie? Nope, not stepping on it.

Lol you’re ok with tail strikes though?

 

[SurferLucas]

We have like five or six memory items at SouthernJets, probably 90% of them are "put on your oxygen mask before you asphyxiate y'self, moron"

Hey Airbus boy, I had to cram 9 into my little 737 brain (most of them are “turn off AP and/or AT’s, do pilot stuff, ya maroon)

In places like Aruba (were airlines like AS are not seen) the transition altitude is 2500’, 4000ft transition level…St Lucia is level from ATC, transition altitude is 9000ft. You can easily touch those two islands on same rotation/back to back rotations…so that pesky climb checklist comes in handy.

 

[derg]

You'd be wrong.

That's not surprising of course.

CAVOK (or maybe it was one of the other consulting firms) did a study on it a few years ago. American had the most items on their checklists.

My shop has an item at transition level and transition altitude as well. Remember, the little domestic bubble you fly in is a very small part of the world, and in lots of places those things don't occur at 18,000 so having a checklist item to make sure you remember to swap over is pretty important.

Correct. FL180 has nothing to do with TL or TA outside of the US for the most part.

 

[BobDDuck]

Hey Airbus boy...

…so that pesky climb checklist comes in handy.

Fortunately on civilized aircraft (cough cough airbii) the baro flashes at you when you go through TA/TL based on the GPS position and a database of appropriate altitudes/levels.

(although Boeing may do that as well)

 

[Boris Badenov]

(although Boeing may do that as well)

They do. And they don't call me a retard, either.

 

[mikecweb]

Fortunately on civilized aircraft (cough cough airbii) the baro flashes at you when you go through TA/TL based on the GPS position and a database of appropriate altitudes/levels.

(although Boeing may do that as well)

 

[roundout]

Fortunately on civilized aircraft (cough cough airbii) the baro flashes at you when you go through TA/TL based on the GPS position and a database of appropriate altitudes/levels.

(although Boeing may do that as well)

The number of times I’ve bad to explain this all to 2000hour FOs who try to demonstrate how smart and proactive they can be. Like “bro it literally starts flashing at you, just wait until it flashes. You can literally never be wrong if you just let it do its thing.”

 

[MikeD]

there shouldn’t be anything inherently difficult with flying and instrument approach and transitioning to a VFR basic traffic pattern and to a landing. Flying a traffic pattern would be a higher AGL than a circle to land maneuver, and It’s terps’d for circling (complying with any restrictions) then a standard traffic pattern that isn’t some exaggerate wide pattern, shouldn’t be a problem. Obviously, don’t do it if the Wx doesn’t allow for a standard VFR traffic pattern altitude and be mindful of where terrain and obstacles are that would extend anywhere into your desired flight pattern are located. It’s not inherently dangerous. Only is if the pilot makes it so.

 

[Richman]

We have like five or six memory items at SouthernJets, probably 90% of them are "put on your oxygen mask before you asphyxiate y'self, moron"

Len Morgan once commented about how it was absurd we had memorize stuff we used once a year, but used checklists for stuff we often time did multiple times a day.

Of course, in the Great North, we had an easily accessible card with “immediate action” items which then led you to the correct checklists, obviating the need for memory items…..but reasons.

 

[CFI A&P]

They do. And they don't call me a retard, either.

Maybe it should?

Someone had to take the shot.

 

[form810]

I am with Roger on this one. Having a good systems knowledge is good. But anything beyond that is pointless to commit to memory. Airplanes are computerized that only the engineers really about the inner workings of the computer. We only know what we're told.

Sadly, even the "engineers" don't have much of a clue (a fact verified personally by many top dogs at many SV tool companies). Most scrows labeled "software engineer" these days are the SV high-tool (English of the Greek, "technology") versions of the McDonald burger-flipper-trained "pilots" who fly most aircraft these days.