JetBlue hires violent felon as a pilot

SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Your hypothetical is a fantasy, as there are NEVER two equally qualified candidates. Something always sets one person apart on qualifications.
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That's right, and what you failed to post is my other post that explained why I hate them, they can be constructed in a fashion that there is no right answer. You've said you use a lot of technology regarding the hiring in your company, how many convicted felons do you employ?
 
Bob Ridpath said:
How would I even know? Why would I even think to ask? If they are both equally qualified and suited for the job, why would it matter? To answer your question specifically, I would choose the one who had the most recent experience and was best suited for the job - without regard to his/her personal history.

In terms of this specific pilot, someone determined (as is always the case), that hey met the required qualifications and could do the job safely and well. I trust, without knowing, that is the case with whomever is up front.
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I'm with you in that I don't understand the angst. It's not my concern to make sure the men and women flying aircraft are clean as the driven snow, or if they have a history that they have been rehabilitated. I'm trusting the company to do their due diligence with someone that has a record - I can't imagine how this particular individual convinced the company to hire him, but whatever it was is good enough for me. The company has to be convinced that he's a legitimately qualified pilot, and that the"other stuff" is no longer an issue, and they have to be comfortable that that is true for every flight he does. My only concern is the one-in-a-million chance that he is the pilot on a flight I'm on, coupled with the one-in-a-million odds of him flipping out on my flight. Huh - not even remotely on my personal radar.

Let the company decide if they're comfortable with his past and rehabilitation. If we don't know the details, how can we judge, and more importantly why should we?
 
knot4u said:
That's right, and what you failed to post is my other post that explained why I hate them, they can be constructed in a fashion that there is no right answer. You've said you use a lot of technology regarding the hiring in your company, how many convicted felons do you employ?
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I wouldn’t have any idea. It’s not something I ask about, and we don’t do background checks.
 
Bob Ridpath said:
Not sure there was a "need," just don't personally understand the issue.


I personally disagree if they have the qualifications to operate on me successfully. Their past matters less to me than their ability to do "the job" properly when I need it done. Generally speaking, I have no idea what someone's past might be - what their morals are, their religion (if they have one), whether or not they were arrested and served time for something decades ago.

Honestly, I don't even ask, nor would think to.

Truthfully now, do you have any idea of the personal history of your doctors, dentist, lawyer, accountant, or whomever? Do you actually look into that before you enter into a "whatever" relationship, assuming they are qualified? I wouldn't even know where to start that process personally.

If this guy/gal is licensed and qualified to fly, holds a valid ATP, and meets the hiring requirements of the airline, why the hell does anyone care who they may have been a a"hundred" years ago. Serious question.
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look at the number of questions on felony or drug convictions or even arrests for same that we get every 2 years when rehacking our EMT certs. Especially considering the number of paramedics who end up abusing or stealing the drugs they are entrusted with keeping and administering. Those are the people who have broken the trust that cause these questions during initial and recent, to now be standard.
 
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ppragman said:
I mean, why not? If he’s rehabilitated, served his time, he should be fine.

Otherwise why is he out of prison? He may have been a giant • then, but he’s been deemed fit to reenter society, why should he not get the chance provided he is qualified (it appears he is).

Otherwise, why release him in the first place. Honestly, this is a good thing.
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Yeah and what’s odd as well is people don’t want these felons working around people or something. Then they become homeless and same person will be screaming they need to get these homeless thugs out of our city! It’s like a lose-lose forever with some people. Second chances aren’t a thing, I guess. And if the crime is so bad, why ever let the person out?
 
I'm going to hate myself in the morning, but am still going to ask/discuss.

Without being particularly familiar, isn't there a "moral" clause required for an ATP (maybe other licenses as well)?

I've no idea how that might be interpreted or enforced, yet this individual has clearly passed that bar, I guess.

It seems largely unenforceable to me, but what do I know? Who determines "good moral character" and with what kind of review? I mean, as a divorcee, within my one-time peer group I am (without exception or explanation) unfit for any kind of officially-sanctioned ministry.

Is the same true for an airline (or 135 or 91) pilot?

Is divorce OK? A fling with a coworker? "Fudging" one's taxes? Where exactly lies the line?

I mean this as a serious question for understanding, although I suspect there will be many divergent opinions.

Does the FAA, prior to issuing licenses/cents actually look into moral character, or is my understanding outdated and has no bearing in their issuance?

While some of you must doubt this by now, I'm actually fairly conservative politically and experientially; still, a long time ago, that would have allowed for reform and moving forward into a different future. I lived it. I know it.

So, seriously, why can't this person fly the heavy iron, in your opinion? The crime and the "payment" for same is understood. What otherwise should preclude them - AND WHY? What should, in your opinion (specifically) keep them out of the cockpit? I imagine that every time you fly, whether as FO with a Captain or vice versa, you trust that the company has done their due diligence and know next to nothing about the personal history of the person to your right or left.

Apart from social media, what negates the skill of this individual so many question?
 
tcco94 said:
Yeah and what’s odd as well is people don’t want these felons working around people or something. Then they become homeless and same person will be screaming they need to get these homeless thugs out of our city! It’s like a lose-lose forever with some people. Second chances aren’t a thing, I guess. And if the crime is so bad, why ever let the person out?
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It’s a philosophy of punishment - that’s all it’s about, making people suffer who they think they’re better than. That’s the only thing that makes sense given the practical realities involved.

Like this is a “win” for everyone. Now this guy is out paying taxes and being a productive citizen instead of costing the tax payer thousands of dollars to rot in a cage.
 
tcco94 said:
Yeah and what’s odd as well is people don’t want these felons working around people or something. Then they become homeless and same person will be screaming they need to get these homeless thugs out of our city! It’s like a lose-lose forever with some people. Second chances aren’t a thing, I guess. And if the crime is so bad, why ever let the person out?
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There is a lot of space between barring someone from employment until they become homeless and being in charge of a multi million dollar airplane and 200 lives for a major airline.
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I'm going to hate myself in the morning, but am still going to ask/discuss.

Without being particularly familiar, isn't there a "moral" clause required for an ATP (maybe other licenses as well)?

I've no idea how that might be interpreted or enforced, yet this individual has clearly passed that bar, I guess.

It seems largely unenforceable to me, but what do I know? Who determines "good moral character" and with what kind of review? I mean, as a divorcee, within my one-time peer group I am (without exception or explanation) unfit for any kind of officially-sanctioned ministry.

Is the same true for an airline (or 135 or 91) pilot?

Is divorce OK? A fling with a coworker? "Fudging" one's taxes? Where exactly lies the line?

I mean this as a serious question for understanding, although I suspect there will be many divergent opinions.

Does the FAA, prior to issuing licenses/cents actually look into moral character, or is my understanding outdated and has no bearing in their issuance?

While some of you must doubt this by now, I'm actually fairly conservative politically and experientially; still, a long time ago, that would have allowed for reform and moving forward into a different future. I lived it. I know it.

So, seriously, why can't this person fly the heavy iron, in your opinion? The crime and the "payment" for same is understood. What otherwise should preclude them - AND WHY? What should, in your opinion (specifically) keep them out of the cockpit? I imagine that every time you fly, whether as FO with a Captain or vice versa, you trust that the company has done their due diligence and know next to nothing about the personal history of the person to your right or left.

Apart from social media, what negates the skill of this individual so many question?
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Good moral character is very ambiguous when it comes to ATP. There are people convicted of range of heinous crimes that still hold ATPs.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Ain't no way I see people would honor a similar pass to some black or brown guy who was convicted for a terror plot (killing no one, just plot) and then served 20 yrs and released.


And you know darn well "are rather than who they were" is NOT true. If I was applying to the big 3 today, and 10 yrs ago there were racist tirades online that I wrote that went off on Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. you can bet that IF the hiring board saw those posts and linked it to me as the applicant, my interview is going bad / job offer is getting denied.
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Speaking of rape, thousands of child rapists and abusers are being let out of prison early. Some less than a year.

Okay to be an airline pilot?


Thanks to CA voters who passed Prop 57 and to woke DAs who are soft on crime.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thousands of pedophiles in California getting less than a year in jail

An analysis of a California sex offenders database shows thousands of child molesters are being let out of prison after just a few months.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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False narrative. Histrionic statements with little evidence to support your claim.

It's an algorithm that decides what "early" means. You know that. Early release is a parole board and not judges. . .or has the correctional system changed? I have a question.

How long should a person be incarcerated for shoplifting? What should the fine be? Should time for a "violent" crime be any different than a white collar crime? So, a person should be incarcerated for tax evasion? Bernie Madoff? If pardoned, like all the Trump pardons, should they be eligible to be pilots? The female astronaut who assaulted her old boyfriend's new girlfriend. Wasn't she a pilot? Wasn't she a pilot? Should SHE no longer maintain her certificate? I'm curious if your punitive standard is the same? Correct me if I'm wrong, she retired honorably from the military.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Ain't no way I see people would honor a similar pass to some black or brown guy who was convicted for a terror plot (killing no one, just plot) and then served 20 yrs and released.


And you know darn well "are rather than who they were" is NOT true. If I was applying to the big 3 today, and 10 yrs ago there were racist tirades online that I wrote that went off on Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. you can bet that IF the hiring board saw those posts and linked it to me as the applicant, my interview is going bad / job offer is getting denied.
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Sooooo, what did you do?
 
MFT1Air said:
False narrative. Histrionic statements with little evidence to support your claim.

It's an algorithm that decides what "early" means. You know that. Early release is a parole board and not judges. . .or has the correctional system changed? I have a question.

How long should a person be incarcerated for shoplifting? What should the fine be? Should time for a "violent" crime be any different than a white collar crime? So, a person should be incarcerated for tax evasion? Bernie Madoff? If pardoned, like all the Trump pardons, should they be eligible to be pilots? The female astronaut who assaulted her old boyfriend's new girlfriend. Wasn't she a pilot? Wasn't she a pilot? Should SHE no longer maintain her certificate? I'm curious if your punitive standard is the same? Correct me if I'm wrong, she retired honorably from the military.
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It depends on the crime. IF a victim is involved, we should be far more strict. So stealing food is entirely different than dressing in body armor, breaking down a judge’s door, and assaulting an ex-GF/wife.

The whole job of an airline pilot involved having the lives of hundreds of people each day. Sorry, but no violent felons should be allowed to fly for major airlines.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It depends on the crime. IF a victim is involved, we should be far more strict. So stealing food is entirely different than dressing in body armor, breaking down a judge’s door, and assaulting an ex-GF/wife.

The whole job of an airline pilot involved having the lives of hundreds of people each day. Sorry, but no violent felons should be allowed to fly for major airlines.
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Have to say, I agree here. Im very much for reintegration and acceptance into society, and I find most of our felony punishments absurd, but this case, with the facts as they are…should this guy be allowed in the flight deck; No! Loss of the Vote=no , 4th waiver = no, flying a bus with crowded families on board, not a risk I think that society should be willing/forced to take.

I expected click-bait when I finally read the article, maybe some drunken night at the bar…violent felony indeed. but nope. Seems to be a straight calculated, intentional, and violent attack. Guy shouldn't be flying.
 
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Bob Ridpath said:
Not sure there was a "need," just don't personally understand the issue.


I personally disagree if they have the qualifications to operate on me successfully. Their past matters less to me than their ability to do "the job" properly when I need it done. Generally speaking, I have no idea what someone's past might be - what their morals are, their religion (if they have one), whether or not they were arrested and served time for something decades ago.

Honestly, I don't even ask, nor would think to.

Truthfully now, do you have any idea of the personal history of your doctors, dentist, lawyer, accountant, or whomever? Do you actually look into that before you enter into a "whatever" relationship, assuming they are qualified? I wouldn't even know where to start that process personally.

If this guy/gal is licensed and qualified to fly, holds a valid ATP, and meets the hiring requirements of the airline, why the hell does anyone care who they may have been a a"hundred" years ago. Serious question.
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I would think after serving 10-25 yrs. in prison, if your license wasn't already revoked your skills/knowledge as a doctor would have greatly atrophied. Definitely if you're surgeon. I don't think realistically after that amount of time has passed, felony or not. That you'd be able to practice again.

I don't know if its the same example or different. But working where I work, I often I work with a lot of immigrants. A lot of my fellow techs were doctors back in Nigeria. We even had a Russian guy who was a doctor back in Russia, who was a tech. They all had to retest and if they scored high enough and were selected. They had do a new residency program that was super competitive to be a part of.

SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
I mean, that’s just the way a market works. Supply is down and demand is up. Back in my day, you couldn’t get a Delta invite unless you had a graduate degree, a check airman letter, or knew the CEO. Now they take kids out of RJs with no PIC time. Prepare for it to get worse.
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So you're saying that there's a chance? :D
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
I would think after serving 10-25 yrs. in prison, if your license wasn't already revoked your skills/knowledge as a doctor would have greatly atrophied. Definitely if you're surgeon. I don't think realistically after that amount of time has passed, felony or not. That you'd be able to practice again.

I don't know if its the same example or different. But working where I work, I often I work with a lot of immigrants. A lot of my fellow techs were doctors back in Nigeria. We even had a Russian guy who was a doctor back in Russia, who was a tech. They all had to retest and if they scored high enough and were selected. They had do a new residency program that was super competitive to be a part of.



So you're saying that there's a chance? :D
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You have got to get out of the ward my friend. Soon enough itll be quite literally the inmates running the asylum :). Hurry up and get your hours, I am looking forward to the conversation in cruise!
 
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