1500hrs quantity<quality

[killbilly]

they really shouldn’t be. They are a pre-briefed contingency to any instrument Approach or visual approach, or at least should be.

A go around isn’t inherently dangerous or an overload of work. It’s only that way when a crew makes it that way by failing to pre-brief one, and by extension, not being in the mindset to expect one and be ready for same.

Now that I've started teaching instrument students, one of the things I'm learning is there is a difference between making the briefing noises while pointing at the chart, and actually, mentally, internalizing the procedure and being prepared for it.

 

[BobDDuck]

Now that I've started teaching instrument students, one of the things I'm learning is there is a difference between making the briefing noises while pointing at the chart, and actually, mentally, internalizing the procedure and being prepared for it.

This applies to pretty much any briefing. When it's my leg and the captain decides to brief the entire flight (including the landing), all I hear is Charlie Brown's teacher in the other seat.

 

[killbilly]

This applies to pretty much any briefing. When it's my leg and the captain decides to brief the entire flight (including the landing), all I hear is Charlie Brown's teacher in the other seat.

So....here's the thing.

I've quietly sat among discussions and gatherings among chiefs, FAA ASIs, a couple of DPEs....all debating the "right" way to brief an approach.

I've seen some guidance that says, "you should basically know every piece of data cold on the chart and execute everything." And I've seen and heard other guidance that says, "Dude. Verify the freqs of the NAVAIDs, know the plate is good, note the DA/MDA, FAF, runway length and missed procedure. Everything else is secondary."

The training environment for new instrument students is hardly the real world. How are you guys doing approach briefings in the "real world?"

 

[Wardogg]

The training environment for new instrument students is hardly the real world. How are you guys doing approach briefings in the "real world?"

91? 135? 121? Single pilot? Dual pilot?

All of those real worlds are going to give you different answers.

 

[ASpilot2be]

So....here's the thing.

I've quietly sat among discussions and gatherings among chiefs, FAA ASIs, a couple of DPEs....all debating the "right" way to brief an approach.

I've seen some guidance that says, "you should basically know every piece of data cold on the chart and execute everything." And I've seen and heard other guidance that says, "Dude. Verify the freqs of the NAVAIDs, know the plate is good, note the DA/MDA, FAF, runway length and missed procedure. Everything else is secondary."

The training environment for new instrument students is hardly the real world. How are you guys doing approach briefings in the "real world?"

We're a brief everything kind of a place. Which I don't like, because you don't really hear anything on the second or third time going through your home base in a day. It's all the same. I don't like our whole briefing structure in general. The Captain does a brief before we close up, and then I have to do another brief on the taxi out. That should be a heads up time and focused on what's going on around you.

Airlines are starting to go to threat based briefing, which from what I heard is a lot better. Don't know what all is involved, but the couple of times I have heard it, I really liked it. We all know how to read a chart. This is more what's posing a threat.

 

[BobDDuck]

The training environment for new instrument students is hardly the real world. How are you guys doing approach briefings in the "real world?"

We were a brief everything sort of airline, until we got the 321NEOs, and went to the "Airbus" way on that fleet. In that case we brief only what is on the glass, and not what is on the chart (with a few exceptions). If it's on the glass, it's accessible as you are flying the approach right in front of you, so it's more about just a reminder of where to look for things. Some of that has leaked over to the other fleets now, but mostly not.

All that said, we are moving to threat based briefings for all fleets. The implementation has been... rocky, but I think we'll get there eventually.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

The training environment for new instrument students is hardly the real world. How are you guys doing approach briefings in the "real world?"

Exactly... during my IR training they wanted us to basically brief the whole damn plate.

 

[MikeD]

So....here's the thing.

I've quietly sat among discussions and gatherings among chiefs, FAA ASIs, a couple of DPEs....all debating the "right" way to brief an approach.

I've seen some guidance that says, "you should basically know every piece of data cold on the chart and execute everything." And I've seen and heard other guidance that says, "Dude. Verify the freqs of the NAVAIDs, know the plate is good, note the DA/MDA, FAF, runway length and missed procedure. Everything else is secondary."

The training environment for new instrument students is hardly the real world. How are you guys doing approach briefings in the "real world?"

For part 91 and using paper plates, or even displayed paper plates on an iPad, just follow the top to bottom format, with the important items to brief. If it’s a crew, it’s done out loud, if it’s single pilot, you just look at it. Big items are: approach type/current, any restrictions in the remarks. On the plan view: Navaid/WAAS freqs, applicable courses and altitudes for whichever segment you are flying, note the MSA for the sector you’ll be in. Profile view: applicable step downs and/or glide path, FAF or GS intercept and altitude, any related notes contained in that area. Minima: applicable to your approach type and category, and note the Wx required for it, Airport diagram: how you will be approaching the runway if not a straight in and what you expect to see orientation-wise, on breakout from the weather. Missed approach: first climb and first turn, as shown in the quick brief box, unless the missed is short enough to remember the whole thing.

While there is a lot of good info on the plate, not all of it needs to be briefed or immediately noted. Do you care what the ground control frequency is when 20 miles out from the IAF? Nope. Things like that don’t really matter. The whole thing about what is needed to know, versus what is nice to know.

keep it simple. Other operations out there, especially some 121 ones, don’t follow this principle unfortunately, when it comes to this. The “brief everything” ops, come to mind.

 

[CFIT99]

Exactly... during my IR training they wanted us to basically brief the whole damn plate.

Me: uh the tallest obstacle is that tower ...38 miles away on the wrong side of the airport and beyond the go-around corridor...
CKA: ...imminent death averted! *high five*

 

[jtrain609]

Exactly... during my IR training they wanted us to basically brief the whole damn plate.

Waste of time. Brief the threats, brief the differences.

 

[roundout]

Waste of time. Brief the threats, brief the differences.

We're moving towards this, supposedly. Unfortunately, it's approaching at the speed of an advancing glacier. AA does the threat based briefing, and it is much better than our archaic airline interview-level examination of an approach plate. Clear blue VMC? Let's talk about the approach lighting system and the GS descent angle.

 

[roundout]

We're a brief everything kind of a place. Which I don't like, because you don't really hear anything on the second or third time going through your home base in a day. It's all the same. I don't like our whole briefing structure in general. The Captain does a brief before we close up, and then I have to do another brief on the taxi out. That should be a heads up time and focused on what's going on around you.

I'd be curious to know if this is an Airbus thing, because Spirit does it as well, or at least used to. I think they call it the mini-brief. On a recent trip, the F/O and I dissected this brief pretty hard. He asked "do most people brief the target N1 and Flex temp?" My reply was "I have no idea. I'm busy taxiing the plane, and really don't care about anything other than the gross weight, flap setting, nav or hdg, and whether the upper ECAM DU says FLEX or TOGA in the corner." We ended up having a nice discussion about threats, relevant things, and irrelevant things.

Funny story about the gross weight. An F/O made a data entry error a few weeks ago on a plane with no ACARS, but caught it on the mini-brief when the gross weight on the Lower DU didn't match what I had in my head from reading the manifest. I see a lot of people just fold those up and tuck them away without looking at the numbers. I strongly recommend taking 20 seconds to look at it before stuffing it.

 

[ASpilot2be]

I'd be curious to know if this is an Airbus thing, because Spirit does it as well, or at least used to. I think they call it the mini-brief. On a recent trip, the F/O and I dissected this brief pretty hard. He asked "do most people brief the target N1 and Flex temp?" My reply was "I have no idea. I'm busy taxiing the plane, and really don't care about anything other than the gross weight, flap setting, nav or hdg, and whether the upper ECAM DU says FLEX or TOGA in the corner." We ended up having a nice discussion about threats, relevant things, and irrelevant things.

Funny story about the gross weight. An F/O made a data entry error a few weeks ago on a plane with no ACARS, but caught it on the mini-brief when the gross weight on the Lower DU didn't match what I had in my head from reading the manifest. I see a lot of people just fold those up and tuck them away without looking at the numbers. I strongly recommend taking 20 seconds to look at it before stuffing it.

I read flex or toga, and the number.

I rode up front on Alaska, and don't remember them doing a big brief. Personally I think ours needs to be shortened. Definitely brief the weight, and make sure the V speeds make sense. Then if the runaway changes, then you can go over the engine out procedure again.

That's good to know. I will start looking closer at those.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Waste of time. Brief the threats, brief the differences.

Flight school vs. the real world!

 

[mikecweb]

I brief the star page number and then read from the FMC, back to the approach plate, read page number, back to FMC, minimums, lights, automation intent, flap setting, brakes, flare height, turn off direction.

 

[roundout]

I brief the star page number and then read from the FMC, back to the approach plate, read page number, back to FMC, minimums, lights, automation intent, flap setting, brakes, flare height, turn off direction.

Needs more DIFRIPSA

 

[USMCmech]

Exactly... during my IR training they wanted us to basically brief the whole damn plate.

Here's the thing about chief pilots at 141 schools, they can't help themselves from over complicating what should be a very simple process.

"I've dialed in all these frequencies, set the needles according to this chart, I'll make sure to avoid these obstacles, I'll be going missed by this point/altitude if I don't see the runway, if that happens I'll do X Y & Z." As long as you cover the important parts that's all that matters.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Here's the thing about chief pilots at 141 schools, they can't help themselves from over complicating what should be a very simple process.

"I've dialed in all these frequencies, set the needles according to this chart, I'll make sure to avoid these obstacles, I'll be going missed by this point/altitude if I don't see the runway, if that happens I'll do X Y & Z." As long as you cover the important parts that's all that matters.

You would think that, right, nope. Like someone said we had to basically do an interview style brief on all of our approaches during IR training. Per SOP from the Chief pilot.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

runaway changes,

this is an unintentionally funny typo that nicely describes flight standards departments.

 

[USMCmech]

You would think that, right, nope. Like someone said we had to basically do an interview style brief on all of our approaches during IR training. Per SOP from the Chief pilot.

Just remember that once you are out of the training bubble, IFR is much easier.