Paying your dues???

jtrain609 said:
Knowing how to interact with other humans is way more important than knowing the details of a four segment climb. This is something that's taught in training at an airline, and is covered briefly because it doesn't matter as much as y'all seem to think it does.

CRM, on the other hand, and being able to monitor effectively and inform the pilot flying that something is going sideways in a way that allows them to hear you is absolutely critical to crewed operations.

You don't learn these skills while boring holes in the sky doing traffic watch, or flying skydivers, or doing aerial survey; you learn these skills while flight instructing. And you WILL be tested on these skills during an interview at any airline, and a few airlines WILL bounce you out during the psych testing if they decide you can't effectively interact with other people.

And at that point, all those cool pilot skills, and all those cool nunchuck skills will do nothing for your career.
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What about computer hacking skills? GOSH!
 
Apophis said:
Additionally, I never used the CFI certificate. I have never had trouble in any professional training program.
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I got my CFI around 1000 hours TT and have about 50 hrs dual given, always found better paying jobs (aerial survey, traffic watch, ferrying)

FWIW, the only time I was asked about my CFI was when I interviewed for an Instructor position at my former 135 Fractional ( also of the ~15 instructors in the department, only about half had their CFI)
 
jtrain609 said:
Knowing how to interact with other humans is way more important than knowing the details of a four segment climb. This is something that's taught in training at an airline, and is covered briefly because it doesn't matter as much as y'all seem to think it does.

CRM, on the other hand, and being able to monitor effectively and inform the pilot flying that something is going sideways in a way that allows them to hear you is absolutely critical to crewed operations.

You don't learn these skills while boring holes in the sky doing traffic watch, or flying skydivers, or doing aerial survey; you learn these skills while flight instructing. And you WILL be tested on these skills during an interview at any airline, and a few airlines WILL bounce you out during the psych testing if they decide you can't effectively interact with other people.

And at that point, all those cool pilot skills, and all those cool nunchuck skills will do nothing for your career.
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Going to strongly agree with J here.

CFIing is way more than just about knowledge, but the consolidation of what you’ve learned is a critical component of that.

Learning how to deal with/interact/monitor people is a giant part of the game. And there is skin in this game. Being responsible for other people is a huge deal in this business. Get used to it.

This is job where you don’t want to stand out in the wrong way. Follow the process, mark the days, completely the task, try your best, move on to the next step. A large percentage of the individuals who I’ve seen try to evade the “the pipeline” have washed out as some point. Correlation is not causation, but this business is about increasing your odds over the other person. You certainly don’t want to lower them. You’re just making life more difficult for yourself.

As for the system being broken, I’ll strongly disagree. The last thing you want is a version of what they do in most of the rest of the world, for multiple reasons. Our system endures because it works, and has worked well for nearly 7 decades.
 
Avalon781ML said:
Yep... and it’s in the middle of nowhere so people are leery at the idea of building apartment complexes in case the oil industry goes bust (again).

I enjoyed my time there and frankly had I not already had the taste of turbine flying I would’ve hung my hat there for a while. The weather is pretty good except for the 10 times a year when a nasty ass storm hits.
My two cents; if you have the chance Max go fly for this outfit. You’ll learn to deal with fatigue, fuel vs time management, low level experience, supreme multitasking, and super duper VFR see and avoid skills.
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Avalon781ML said:
I like to think of it as more of a “guy wire and power line avoidance time.”
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What kind of training do they offer at this outfit? Is it extensive, thorough?
 
Apophis said:
Lol dude, exactly. It wasn’t covered that well. Well enough to pass but how much of that are you going to care about until you actually experience it? You sure as hell aren’t going to retain that knowledge until it’s actually being used on a semi regular basis.

Instrument is the only checkride I have failed. But not for the reasons you mention (partial panel NDB approach).
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On the contrary, there is plenty of material that was covered in my instrument training that wasn’t pertinent at the time, but still relevant in the grand scheme of things. For example, funny you mention NDB... well the airplane used for my instrument rating didn’t have an ADF in it but I still remember the memory aid to help remember MH+RB=MB. It was still testable material on the written and in the oral, so it was a good idea to study it. Plus, if I did t study it and tripped up on it during the oral, how ironic would it be to pink slip on a system that isn’t even installed in the airplane?

Back on subject, there’s a reason that CFI is even mentioned in some non-121 job ads even though it isn’t for an instructor position. It helps identify candidates with “people skills”, helps but doesn’t guarantee it Two candidates sitting at the interview table, both with similar ratings and flight time but one is from a solo pilot path (banner, ferry flying, survey, freight) and the other is from a large 141 school and instructional experience. Which candidate has spent more time interacting with their peers and vendors on a professional level?
 
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CFI A&P said:
On the contrary, there is plenty of material that was covered in my instrument training that wasn’t pertinent at the time, but still relevant in the grand scheme of things. For example, funny you mention NDB... well the airplane used for my instrument rating didn’t have an ADF in it but I still still remember the memory aid to help remember MH+RB=MB. It was still testable material on the written and in the oral, so it was a good idea to study it. Plus, if I did t study it and tripped up on it during the oral, how ironic would it be to pink slip on a system that isn’t even installed in the airplane?

Back on subject, there’s a reason that CFI is even mentioned in some non-121 job ads even though it isn’t for an instructor position. It helps identify candidates with “people skills”, helps but doesn’t guarantee it Two candidates sitting at the interview table, both with similar ratings and flight time but one is from a solo pilot path (banner, ferry flying, survey, freight) and the other is from a large 141 school and instructional experience. Which candidate has spent more time interacting with their peers and vendors on a professional level?
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I don’t care about that Mumbo jumbo. I’d hire the freight guy in a heartbeat. He’s probably got really strong instrument skills and has real world flying experience. Not puttering around the pattern in a 152.

Look, this clearly strikes a chord with you (CFI is even in your username), but you need to move past your biases.

CFI helps with people skills. So do a LOT of other time building jobs.
 
Richman said:
Going to strongly agree with J here.

CFIing is way more than just about knowledge, but the consolidation of what you’ve learned is a critical component of that.

Learning how to deal with/interact/monitor people is a giant part of the game. And there is skin in this game. Being responsible for other people is a huge deal in this business. Get used to it.

This is job where you don’t want to stand out in the wrong way. Follow the process, mark the days, completely the task, try your best, move on to the next step. A large percentage of the individuals who I’ve seen try to evade the “the pipeline” have washed out as some point. Correlation is not causation, but this business is about increasing your odds over the other person. You certainly don’t want to lower them. You’re just making life more difficult for yourself.

As for the system being broken, I’ll strongly disagree. The last thing you want is a version of what they do in most of the rest of the world, for multiple reasons. Our system endures because it works, and has worked well for nearly 7 decades.
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Sorry, but change is a good thing, even if it takes time. I really don’t give a damn that I’m offending the butthurt CFIs in this thread. You aren’t God’s gift to aviation. You aren’t a better aviator than anybody else because you taught somebody how to bounce around in a 152. You need to just suck it up and get over yourself.
 
Apophis said:
Sorry, but change is a good thing, even if it takes time. I really don’t give a damn that I’m offending the butthurt CFIs in this thread. You aren’t God’s gift to aviation. You aren’t a better aviator than anybody else because you taught somebody how to bounce around in a 152. You need to just suck it up and get over yourself.
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Cue the “Show us on the doll where the mean, ole’ CFI touched you” meme.
 
I got my CFI/II, used it for about 200 hours and didn’t really care for it, but tried to be the best damn instructor I could be. However I went to fly survey and enjoyed it immensely more, and find a lot of the criticisms of it come from people who obviously never did it and presume what it entails. I learned a lot about CRM as an instructor that did help me as a captain, but I also spent a ton of time flying survey repositioning airplanes literally across the entire country and most corners of it, filing IFR and getting in the system every change I could, working with busy ATC, managing an airplane on the road, etc. I don’t think you need to have CFI experience to pay attention to the concepts of CRM, learn about it, and just generally learn how to not be a Richard to your other crew members. At this point I feel like remembering what it was like to be an FO was immensely more helpful to me as a captain and remembering what it was like to be a captain has been immensely more helpful to me to be a useful FO again.
 
Apophis said:
I don’t care about that Mumbo jumbo. I’d hire the freight guy in a heartbeat. He’s probably got really strong instrument skills and has real world flying experience. Not puttering around the pattern in a 152.

Look, this clearly strikes a chord with you

CFI helps with people skills. So do a LOT of other time building jobs.
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Clearly this strikes a chord with you too. I also don't have any beef with you, or anyone that chose a career path without instructing. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but this dead horse comes up every day in the online discussions about low time pilots looking to advance their careers. It isn't new, and instructing has been the popular way for decades. Even the late great Robert A. Hoover was an instructor right out of flight training (I'm not comparing myself to him, just citing a decades old example of instructing as part of the career track). Yes, there are other fields that offer people skills, but using a credential from within the industry is far easier to help identify candidates with these skills than asking if someone has any experience being a guidance counselor, mentor, intimately familiar with regulatory policies, conflict resolution - mediation, etc....
 
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Some of you are confusing “how you wish the world works” with “how the world actually works”. Historically CFI has been the bridge between 250 hr and 1500 hr for MOST prospective airline pilots, whether you like teaching or not.

Are there other ways to build that time? Absolutely, but there are less opportunities and you’ll have to fight all the other pilots who also hate teaching for one of those jobs. Survey seems like a really good alternative a lot of people on here have successfully done, but comes with the price of being on the road crashing in motels for most of the year. Pipeline patrol and banner towing always sounded like a blast to me as well, but both are located in limited areas and represent a small slice of the total low time commercial pilot jobs.

Does a system that more or less forces most prospective airline pilots to become teachers whether they like it or not result in some crappy teachers? Certainly, but in my opinion too many pilots blow off the FOI material (educational psychology) as useless fluff when in fact the actual flying part of airline flying isn’t that hard (according to a lot of you here anyway), and the CRM/playing nice with others for multiple days as an effective crew member is the hardest part. The ball is therefore in your court to make the best of the process and take those people skills with you to the part 121 CRM environment.

Full disclosure, I’m not a CFI and ended up not going the professional airline pilot route. But I’m still planning to get it just for fun, because I love tailwheel and aerobatic flying and would love to share that with others in my spare time.
 
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The hyperventilating here is amusing.

In in all the jobs, interviews and aircraft classes I’ve been in over the years, there’s always been one person who had to “be different” and was seemingly compelled reinvent the wheel, rather than take the well defined path.

1 person out of 20, 25 or 30.

Odds are already long making it to the big show. Don’t make things harder than they have to be.
 
USMCmech said:
OK, pet peeve of mine.

Midland/Odessa is a metro area of 250,000 people. They have a baseball team, two malls, several movie theaters, a dozen grocery stores, four high schools, ect. This is not a "small town". It's not LA, but it's not Marbury either. It's actually a medium sized city stuck in the middle of nowhere.

A "small town" has less than 10,000 people, one grocery store, minimal entertainment options, a volunteer fire department, and it's high school may be combined with the rest of the county.

Small suburbs who have been swallowed up by the larger metro area don't count as small towns either. Keller TX where I live was a small town until Ft Worth slowly absorbed it and now it's just part of FW in everything but name.
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All this is true.

Cost of living in Midland over time has an incredibly high beta factor that is largely driven (surprise!) by oil prices and rig counts. A grad school friend of mine got a job out there in 2012 (peak of the shale boom)...and turned it down because literally the only place he could find to live was a beat up camper in a dirt lot for $2k a month. When my company announced they were opening a Midland office and there was a legitimate chance I’d be headed out there, the housing prices were absurd. Like $500k for a 40yr old 3br house with a ton of bejeweled crosses all over the walls.
 
I did instructing and pipeline patrol. You learn different things from each. I never went the airline route so I'm not sure if being a CFI would help there or now. It didn't do much to help me for a crew environment. Walking a student through how to do stuff in a 172 is a lot different then working as a crew in a jet. I'd say my pipeline time is more valuable to me. I had to deal with multiple emergencies that prepared me for anything else to come.

Also, I didn't hear about second segment until 10 years into my career.
 
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Flyinthrew said:
The last several pages of this thread are an excruciating tail chase.
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Yup, I’m out for now. Part of the reason I’m so grumpy is the 2nd Moderna shot from yesterday is kicking my ass up and down. Have felt like a zombie since about 5AM.
 
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