What we've got here is failure to communicate

[derg]

I walked off a jet once but I didn’t curse at the captain. I just... Left!

Flight cancelled for the reasons I left for so I guess I was vindicated!.

The scene:

Flying VCN to JFK. Radar inoperative and necessary for a westbound flight over the tracks. No parts in VCN and maintenance decided that we’d fly from VCN, do a “hot swap” in FRA and continue to NYC.

Running some numbers, it looked like we were going to land 80,000 pounds over max landing weight and the options were to de-fuel the aircraft or take a Mediterranean tour on a zig-zag route to Frankfurt (which actually wasn’t an option because we’d time out anyway).

Notifed the captain that we wouldn’t be able to follow through with maintenances plan.

He said, “Maintenance said we’re good, we’re going”.

“I am uncomfortable with the plan and I strongly feel we should talk to flight control to talk about this plan”

“No. I’m the captain, this is the plan”

“We need to talk to flight control”

”Are you questioning my authority?”

I said nothing, started packing my belongings and exited into the jetway.

“Where are you going?”

”to call crew scheduling and get off the flight”

The agent comes running down saying that flight control had just cancelled the flight because of legalities with the plan to land in FRA and they’re just going to have the part forwarded from FCO later that evening.

No apology, no mea culpa, just a red-faced look of pith on his face, the other FO was largely indifferent and 48 hours became 72 In VCN.

He’s dead now so I really shouldn’t hold any ill will towards him, but I still do.

 

[derg]

Guessing Captain probably started his recording right after he finished his rant about how all asians are bad pilots, laced with racial epithets and referring to his F/O as “sum ting wong.”

We’re only seeing one side to this.

I have a suspicion as well. Aircraft isn’t moving, the “unsafe” word, what would happen to cause the captain to magically start filming? Hmmmmm...

 

[JordanD]

I'm not sure how we deduced from a video of a disheveled FO cursing and trying to assault his captain that "the expat captain working in Asia is probably automatically racist and called his FO a slur."

 

[BobDDuck]

He’s dead now so I really shouldn’t hold any ill will towards him, but I still do.

The captain in my similar story is now addicted to meth and the last I heard about him was that he was seen driving around the airport in a white panel van screaming at crew members that he needed help because the Triads were chasing him and going to chop off his head. I should probably feel bad.... but nah.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I'm not sure how we deduced from a video of a disheveled FO cursing and trying to assault his captain that "the expat captain working in Asia is probably automatically racist and called his FO a slur."

Ok on the one hand I was being dramatic. On the other hand I want to know what set off the F/O as it’s very suspicious that all we see is the F/O going postal. Something set him off, we don’t know what it was.

Also, if the captain was trying to record video evidence to have some ammo to show to his company, why put it on the internet? If, as I suspect, the reason is because in that part of the world the company’s HR department consists entirely of a middle aged guy that just tells you to STFU and do what you’re told, so you want the public to know how unsafe the airline is and posting the video is the best way to inform the public, then by all means, but maybe add the airline name and a little background on the incident?

 

[JordanD]

Ok on the one hand I was being dramatic. On the other hand I want to know what set off the F/O as it’s very suspicious that all we see is the F/O going postal. Something set him off, we don’t know what it was.

Also, if the captain was trying to record video evidence to have some ammo to show to his company, why put it on the internet? If, as I suspect, the reason is because in that part of the world the company’s HR department consists entirely of a middle aged guy that just tells you to STFU and do what you’re told, so you want the public to know how unsafe the airline is and posting the video is the best way to inform the public, then by all means, but maybe add the airline name and a little background on the incident?

Yeah, I mean the whole thing is bizarre for sure.

 

[guywhoflies]

Ok on the one hand I was being dramatic. On the other hand I want to know what set off the F/O as it’s very suspicious that all we see is the F/O going postal. Something set him off, we don’t know what it was.

Also, if the captain was trying to record video evidence to have some ammo to show to his company, why put it on the internet? If, as I suspect, the reason is because in that part of the world the company’s HR department consists entirely of a middle aged guy that just tells you to STFU and do what you’re told, so you want the public to know how unsafe the airline is and posting the video is the best way to inform the public, then by all means, but maybe add the airline name and a little background on the incident?

I'm pretty sure the guy that posted it is not the captain in the video. It's probably a case of the captain sending it to a buddy and that person putting it on YouTube.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I'm pretty sure the guy that posted it is not the captain in the video. It's probably a case of the captain sending it to a buddy and that person putting it on YouTube.

That just makes it worse.

 

[derg]

Yeah, I mean the whole thing is bizarre for sure.

Yeah it do.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

The captain in my similar story is now addicted to meth and the last I heard about him was that he was seen driving around the airport in a white panel van screaming at crew members that he needed help because the Triads were chasing him and going to chop off his head. I should probably feel bad.... but nah.

We all have our hobbies

 

[Richman]

I walked off a jet once but I didn’t curse at the captain. I just... Left!

Flight cancelled for the reasons I left for so I guess I was vindicated!.

The scene:

Flying VCN to JFK. Radar inoperative and necessary for a westbound flight over the tracks. No parts in VCN and maintenance decided that we’d fly from VCN, do a “hot swap” in FRA and continue to NYC.

Running some numbers, it looked like we were going to land 80,000 pounds over max landing weight and the options were to de-fuel the aircraft or take a Mediterranean tour on a zig-zag route to Frankfurt (which actually wasn’t an option because we’d time out anyway).

Notifed the captain that we wouldn’t be able to follow through with maintenances plan.

He said, “Maintenance said we’re good, we’re going”.

“I am uncomfortable with the plan and I strongly feel we should talk to flight control to talk about this plan”

“No. I’m the captain, this is the plan”

“We need to talk to flight control”

”Are you questioning my authority?”

I said nothing, started packing my belongings and exited into the jetway.

“Where are you going?”

”to call crew scheduling and get off the flight”

The agent comes running down saying that flight control had just cancelled the flight because of legalities with the plan to land in FRA and they’re just going to have the part forwarded from FCO later that evening.

No apology, no mea culpa, just a red-faced look of pith on his face, the other FO was largely indifferent and 48 hours became 72 In VCN.

He’s dead now so I really shouldn’t hold any ill will towards him, but I still do.

Had something like this with a Captain pre-117. We had a screwed up trip and my little pre-iPhone PDA was screaming at me saying we had insufficient rest. We had gotten a reduced rest the night before, and my PDA was (correctly) pointing out we needed compensatory rest tonight, and we were scheduled for less.

I pointed it out to Captain America a couple of different ways, cause those old compensatory rest rules could be fussy. He finally got pissy with me and blew me off.

Called the Crew Coordinator myself and explained the problem. I got total confirmation I was right when she said “uh, hang on” and put me on hold for 10 minutes. She comes back and says “yea, you’re right, report at noon. Would you call the Captain?”

Me: “No. You can handle that”.

Next day, Captain Machomustacheo is all pissed at me for blowing up the day’s program.

There is a weird type of person that I’ve run into about half a dozen times over 30 years. They seem weirdly “mission oriented” to the exclusion of external limitations, even when they are completely obvious. It takes an extra special effort to make sure you stay with in the lines.

 

[derg]

Had something like this with a Captain pre-117. We had a screwed up trip and my little pre-iPhone PDA was screaming at me saying we had insufficient rest. We had gotten a reduced rest the night before, and my PDA was (correctly) pointing out we needed compensatory rest tonight, and we were scheduled for less.

I pointed it out to Captain America a couple of different ways, cause those old compensatory rest rules could be fussy. He finally got pissy with me and blew me off.

Called the Crew Coordinator myself and explained the problem. I got total confirmation I was right when she said “uh, hang on” and put me on hold for 10 minutes. She comes back and says “yea, you’re right, report at noon. Would you call the Captain?”

Me: “No. You can handle that”.

Next day, Captain Machomustacheo is all pissed at me for blowing up the day’s program.

There is a weird type of person that I’ve run into about half a dozen times over 30 years. They seem weirdly “mission oriented” to the exclusion of external limitations, even when they are completely obvious. It takes an extra special effort to make sure you stay with in the lines.

“Machomustacheo” — I’m dying! Ha!

I always figure by the time your copilot speaks up, it’s been an “issue” for a while so you’d better stop and consider what they’re saying carefully.

What would he have said during a hearing “Oh yeah, I knew I was breaking the FARS but we were on time! WAOOOO!”

 

[Richman]

“Machomustacheo” — I’m dying! Ha!

I always figure by the time your copilot speaks up, it’s been an “issue” for a while so you’d better stop and consider what they’re saying carefully.

What would he have said during a hearing “Oh yeah, I knew I was breaking the FARS but we were on time! WAOOOO!”

Parking Brake FTW....

 

[Flyinthrew]

Had something like this with a Captain pre-117. We had a screwed up trip and my little pre-iPhone PDA was screaming at me saying we had insufficient rest. We had gotten a reduced rest the night before, and my PDA was (correctly) pointing out we needed compensatory rest tonight, and we were scheduled for less.

I pointed it out to Captain America a couple of different ways, cause those old compensatory rest rules could be fussy. He finally got pissy with me and blew me off.

Called the Crew Coordinator myself and explained the problem. I got total confirmation I was right when she said “uh, hang on” and put me on hold for 10 minutes. She comes back and says “yea, you’re right, report at noon. Would you call the Captain?”

Me: “No. You can handle that”.

Next day, Captain Machomustacheo is all pissed at me for blowing up the day’s program.

There is a weird type of person that I’ve run into about half a dozen times over 30 years. They seem weirdly “mission oriented” to the exclusion of external limitations, even when they are completely obvious. It takes an extra special effort to make sure you stay with in the lines.

You can have a mission oriented mindset while also staying within the little shoe box that regs, manuals, and SOPs build for you. Rule based decision making is the name of the game in our higher risk, less time available to decide environment. People who can't stay in the box when rule based decision making is the appropriate decision making modality are just • decision makers. Unfortunately, they get rewarded for their results when nothing goes wrong.

 

[Skåning]

Next day, Captain Machomustacheo is all pissed at me for blowing up the day’s program.

There is a weird type of person that I’ve run into about half a dozen times over 30 years. They seem weirdly “mission oriented” to the exclusion of external limitations, even when they are completely obvious. It takes an extra special effort to make sure you stay with in the lines.

That's the type of person that crashes a plane, unfortunately with peeps sitting behind them.

Mission oriented at an airline is dumb, this ain't the military, there is no life and death requiring a departure. We sit here and you have to convince me we are safe to move...

 

[Richman]

That's the type of person that crashes a plane, unfortunately with peeps sitting behind them.

Mission oriented at an airline is dumb, this ain't the military, there is no life and death requiring a departure. We sit here and you have to convince me we are safe to move...

Actually, most of these pilots were excellent sticks and were able to manage immediate threats, but for some reason, unknown to me, they seem oddly immune to external factors just as Derg’s example above. Kind of a “um, do you really think that’s the best plan?” moment, almost as if they were unable or unwilling to raise a flag against what they see as “higher authority”, despite the fact that they seem quite willing to play the “I’m the captain” card with what they perceive as their underlings.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Actually, most of these pilots were excellent sticks and were able to manage immediate threats, but for some reason, unknown to me, they seem oddly immune to external factors just as Derg’s example above. Kind of a “um, do you really think that’s the best plan?” moment, almost as if they were unable or unwilling to raise a flag against what they see as “higher authority”, despite the fact that they seem quite willing to play the “I’m the captain” card with what they perceive as their underlings.

I think in the 121 environment if you need to use superior stick and rudder skills, you have done fornicated up.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I think in the 121 environment if you need to use superior stick and rudder skills, you have done fornicated up.

Superior, yes, but it’s assumed (incorrectly, as recent events have brutally demonstrated) that everyone is at least adequate.

I remember an instructor at MQ taking the FOM and tossing it across the room, followed by the AOM1. “Neither of these books can fly. What they can do, however, is save your license and your life respectively. But we still need you to be able to fly.”

Mission oriented at an airline is dumb, this ain't the military, there is no life and death requiring a departure. We sit here and you have to convince me we are safe to move...

It’s a completely wrong mission mentality, and it’s why military types don’t always make great airline pilots.

The mission is “don’t hurt anyone and don’t break any rules, and only then if you’re on time that’s awfully nice too.”

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Superior, yes, but it’s assumed (incorrectly, as recent events have brutally demonstrated) that everyone is at least adequate.

I remember an instructor at MQ taking the FOM and tossing it across the room, followed by the AOM1. “Neither of these books can fly. What they can do, however, is save your license and your life respectively. But we still need you to be able to fly.”

It’s a completely wrong mission mentality, and it’s why military types don’t always make great airline pilots.

The mission is “don’t hurt anyone and don’t break any rules, and only then if you’re on time that’s awfully nice too.”

There’s definitely a minimum standard. But it really isn’t particularly high.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

There’s definitely a minimum standard. But it really isn’t particularly high.

Certainly not; “adequate” also varies from carrier to carrier and program to program, too. It’s not high and it probably ought to be marginally higher.

As an aside, I have long thought that objective (automated) grading of maneuvers in simulator would be an interesting and repeatable way to evaluate that corner of pilot skill. Along with a few “real time” uses of FOQA-like data (Vapp achieved at X feet above TDZ, touchdown X feet from the threshold at a pitch attitude of Y, gold star for you!).