The Great Jumpseat War of 2019

A blast from the past, but an example of what Ford Harrison will do:




Dear Teammates,

As you may be aware, there is an effort underway by a group of pilots seeking to organize a union to represent you. Authorization cards are now being solicited for the “Virgin America Pilots Association” (VAPA). Although it is early in the process, I wanted to share my thoughts on why I believe VAPA is not in the best interests of our pilots or our Company.

Many of you have firsthand experience being a member of a union and probably have some war stories about the bureaucracy, adversarial atmosphere, inflexibility, lack of responsiveness and how it all turned out for individual pilots and the carrier itself. In fact, many of us joined Virgin America to get away from these very issues and to create a different kind of airline. Together, we have overcome enormous odds. As one of the few growing U.S. airlines, we are now poised for even greater growth and plan to achieve our first full year operating profit in 2012. I firmly believe that what has made us different is our ability to work together through a direct relationship. Electing a union would change all of that and subject us to the same model that has failed consistently in our industry.
Some of you might think that VAPA, as an “in-house” union, would be different than being part of a national organization and would be free of the baggage that characterized the unions you may have experienced at other carriers. But the truth is that a union is a union, no matter what you call it. It brings with it the same requirements to pay dues, the same need to conduct arduous contract negotiations, and the same inability to discuss individual concerns directly with management. In fact, an “in-house” union might need to charge even higher dues because of its lack of infrastructure and resources. And given how many “in-house” pilots unions eventually give up and merge with a national organization, VAPA could end up being nothing more than a stalking horse for ALPA or the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

In the coming weeks, someone may ask you to sign a VAPA authorization card. These cards are used to secure a union election. If at least 50 percent of our pilots sign cards, the National Mediation Board can authorize an election, and if a majority of those voting in the election choose representation, our entire pilot group would end up unionized. ********* will send you more detailed information on this issue later this week. But let’s be clear on one point-- if you don’t want a union, or if you’re not sure whether you want one, do not fill out an authorization card.

I am proud of our pilot team and the airline you have helped build. We are at another critical juncture for our Company, and I know you will weigh the facts on this issue logically and professionally, as you always do. Please feel free to reach out to me, ****** or ****** with any questions.

Thanks,
 
What does the Skywest pilot union have to say about all this?

What union? SAPA isn't a Union, and they don't have a contract. They have a working agreement. Management could walk in tomorrow and tear up their "contract", flip everyone off, and start from scratch. All a SKW pilot could do about it is quit.
 
But if the leadership team simply runs for similar positions in a newly formed ALPA, here we are again.

Well, not quite. At least there’s some adult supervision. That letter never would have gone out with an ALPA logo on it. A dozen lawyers and comm specs would have stopped that * in its tracks.
 
Pre edit... Based on the events of this weekend and today I know what I'm going to do, nobody is going to miss a ride depending on how they act, but I put a lot of work into this last night without posting it and I think it might spark good discussion for the archives at least...


So because I'm still trying to figure out what the right thing to do is and most people are just Posting jokes and "hurr Durr you suck Odoyle rules.".... I think I'm gonna give it one more shot at actually getting some decent advice here.

I've carried the same UAL jumpseater twice in the days leading up to this. I had no problem with that since I was told it goes into effect on the 15th and that at least gives me breathing room to figure this out. She seemed to agree that it was a huge mess and hoped it would just get resolved. I do too.

Representatives of my company claim that the FOM says I can't carry someone we don't have a reciprocal agreement with. That argument does hold water with me... If it were true. I don't know how anyone could interpret the FOM as it's currently written that way, but if there's any question it only really matters that they do. I'm still waiting on official guidance there and something tells me it won't be forthcoming, so this might all be moot.

If that does happen to be the case, then United claims we don't have an agreement and haven't had one in years. We have posted a signed document, people here have said that that document doesn't count since United isn't United anymore, but United itself seems to have been willing to operate under it for most of the four years I've been here. So if my company officially says no carriage of people without a reciprocal agreement and United says there is no agreement my hands are essentially tied.

United claims we haven't shown up for meetings to discuss, we say United is lying and that these meetings either didn't happen, we weren't invited to them, or they were essentially ultimatums, but haven't given any proof of that. I'm not sure how they would prove that.

I'm wholly unsatisfied with our representation in general, anyone who knows me knows that.

All. That. Said.

At least admit the ethical dilemma. It seems as though the advice I have been given here so far is essentially "If you want to 'get ahead' you should sell out your pilot group."

This goes against everything I have been taught by the very people who are saying it. It sounds like something my dad would say and he's staunchly anti-union. Isn't there a word for people who do that? Could an ALPA member just do whatever they want if they disagree? Where are the bounds of solidarity? What kind of principles would I have if I did that? Is "getting ahead" even worth doing that? How would I feel about myself? How would you feel about yourself?

A friend and mentor has told me that my name on a list could absolutely hinder my chances. This comes from his friend and mentor who is an iron clad source in my opinion. The impression I get is that it's a small minority of petty people calling for blacklisting, but that it could happen.

Sadly, I also think those folks have driven a stake through the heart of organizing efforts here, I think it's easy for them to look at it from the inside of a place that's been organized for decades before they were even born and say "Why don't they just do it? Are they stupid?" But their own history, if they knew it, is also bloody and confusing.

That's probably a conversation for another day.

People seem to want make this a non-union vs. union thing, but two other union airlines are involved too, it just seems like they don't have any presence here.

Would you give the same advice to an IBT represented Republic pilot? Go against the guidance their union has given? It's the same guidance that my representation has given us except they started denying jumps immediately.

How about an ALPA represented Mesa pilot? I don't have any idea what their people have told them, but they refused United's deal as well...

Since people want to make the comparison and I don't really know the situation there since I was a lowly flight school mechanic when all that went down. What advice would/did you give Comair's pilots?

I've expended a lot of energy navigating this because I take this stuff seriously.

To add a little levity... My Mom, who I go to with all of my ethical dilemmas because she could be the ethics poster child, had the best suggestion

"Apply to United right now and tell them you figure the best way to avoid the issue is to be hired immediately!"

I'll admit it, I laughed for the first time in a while.

The last thing I'll say is that I've gotten abuse from all three sides of this issue in a single day simply for asking questions. Some of it was really disgusting, personal, upsetting, and completely unprofessional. No one who treats me like that while asking for a ride will get one (Not that a single mainline pilot has so much as introduced themselves in months, they usually just throw their document at me and say "I have a seat in the back").
I don't care how many lists I end up on for that.
 
The only pettiness is from the people that started and out and out jumpseat war. Go look at the jumpseat priority for Delta/DCI flights, then your own FOM. Where is the outrage on that?
 
The only pettiness is from the people that started and out and out jumpseat war. Go look at the jumpseat priority for Delta/DCI flights, then your own FOM. Where is the outrage on that?


I'm not interested in this argument. Petty was not my word, it was the source's word. I will not call out the source, but it's a trustworthy one.
 
I haven’t worked for an airline for 8yrs, but this isn’t a new problem at all.

Something similar played out in 2008ish when UAL had their reservation system automatically place their own pilots ahead of UAX pilots for the jumpseat on their own UAX airline’s airplanes. That’s why there were the jumpseat priority forms that have been posted in this thread...and I had to make sure I had plenty of them, because while most UAL guys 10 years ago weren’t a-holes, there were a non-zero number who would ignore the UAX priority and try to big dog it down the jetway.

I totally understand wanting to give priority to airlines that are solely dedicated to UAL. And I certainly have no issue with UAL dictating how non-rev travel is awarded on the seats they are paying for. But there’s also a history of UAL trying to dictate how the jumpseat is awarded on their regionals, so I’m not at all surprised they’re getting pushback from multiple regionals on this.

There are precious few things I ever heard ALPA attorneys express with absolute certainty, no equivocation whatsoever. One of that very small number of things was the assertion that SAPA has absolutely, positively, no legal legitimacy whatsoever.

What does “legal legitimacy” mean in this context?

I mean, for collective bargaining purposes? Of course not. I don’t think anyone would seriously argue that SAPA couldn’t be ignored at any time and the employee manual or whatever it’s called now could be revised at any time.

But I talked to several employment attorneys while I worked there that were equally emphatic that SKW had to abide by the compensation and work rules laid out in the employee manual as written. Of course that doesn’t carry the weight of providing for your legal representation, but it also doesn’t mean that the manual isn’t legally binding.

I worked in • conditions at an ALPA carrier before gladly taking a position at Skywest. SKW has historically had a big advantage by having bases where people actually want to live, but still, their work rules and compensation were better than industry average for the years I was there. Still, I recognized the fact they could change “the rules” whenever, and that’s why I voted for ALPA multiple times at Skywest.
 
I'm not interested in this argument. Petty was not my word, it was the source's word. I will not call out the source, but it's a trustworthy one.
There is no argument. Why is this a big deal on United all of a sudden when this is how it’s been on DL since forever? Where’s the outrage when people were getting left with open seats because of an IT issue which in some cases let to people being let go for missed commutes? OO Pilots were never, ever going to lose priority on their own metal and I keep seeing this repeated over and over, half of this crapstorm is being stirred up based on dishonesty and even threatening of other people’s certifcates. Whatever disagreements exists, this is wrong.
 
There is no argument. Why is this a big deal on United all of a sudden when this is how it’s been on DL since forever? Where’s the outrage when people were getting left with open seats because of an IT issue which in some cases let to people being let go for missed commutes? OO Pilots were never, ever going to lose priority on their own metal and I keep seeing this repeated over and over, half of this crapstorm is being stirred up based on dishonesty and even threatening of other people’s certifcates. Whatever disagreements exists, this is wrong.

Do you have any opinions as to the questions I actually asked?
 
What does “legal legitimacy” mean in this context?

In any contest whatsoever. For all intents and purposes, SAPA does not exist.

But I talked to several employment attorneys while I worked there that were equally emphatic that SKW had to abide by the compensation and work rules laid out in the employee manual as written. Of course that doesn’t carry the weight of providing for your legal representation, but it also doesn’t mean that the manual isn’t legally binding.

This is why talking to any random employment attorney is a really bad idea. Employment law is not RLA law. Hell, it’s not even NLRB law. The average employment attorney never deals with issues even beginning to approach this stuff.
 
At this point who cares how or why it started. What's a Line pilot to do in this moral dilemma? This jumpseat war is turning into a union civil war. No winners.

Looks like the United Facebook page is posting the Facebook pics of pilots denying jumpseats.
 
What say you JC? Follow your Union directives with solidarity against other union pilots at your detriment to your career? Or turn your back on your own Union for your own personal advantage with another Union group?
 
Sure. I guess it's that simple. Seriously, at what point do you tow the union line or walk away? Is anything short of Scabbing just personal discretion?

I guess I first need clarification. Are you a Republic pilot or a Skywest pilot? Because Skywest pilots have no union. Assuming you’re Republic, I’d say this isn’t an industrial action, and the IBT really has no authority to direct you on jumpseat approvals. If they told you to strike and you didn’t agree, I’d say you still have to strike. That’s an industrial action, and that’s where their authority lies. But taking action against your fellow pilots at a different airline? That’s not an industrial action. They have no authority there. It’s like them telling you what technique to use in flying the plane. Just shrug and laugh it off.
 
What say you JC? Follow your Union directives with solidarity against other union pilots at your detriment to your career? Or turn your back on your own Union for your own personal advantage with another Union group?

If it was actually a union telling you that, you'd have to make an ethical decision. Fortunately that's not the case here.
 
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