womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
No, we are TWU. It could get real interesting here over the next month and a half. The ground side has our full support, as well as the IPA.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American
- Thread starter dxbear
- Start date
No, we are TWU. It could get real interesting here over the next month and a half. The ground side has our full support, as well as the IPA.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A-9er
Well-Known Member
A1, B scale means you get paid less than those on the A scale. Those hired after a certain date are on the B scale, while established employees are paid A scale wages. The A and B scales are part of what's known as a two tiered wage system. The two tiered wage scales were introduced back in the early 1980s to help airlines with their finances, which were shaky back then. Under the original two tiered wage scale, a B scaler would move to A scale after a few years time; the time spent on B scale was determined by the contract negotiated between the union and management. You could think of it as loosely analogous to a rookie pay scale in pro sports.
Later, a more pernicious form of the two tiered wage scale was introduced. Under the original incarnation, one COULD move to the A scale; usually, it was after a predetermined period of time on B scale, per the company contract. Under later iterations of the two tiered wage scale, B scalers could NEVER move to A scale. In the early 1990s, other industries adopted the practice, but they went even farther; they adopted multiple tiers. For example, supermarkets would have an A, B, and C scale, and there was NO provision for upward movement; that means a B or C scaler could never hope to move up from C to B scale or B to A scale.
While I could understand the need for the original two tier wage scale (say the company is in dire financial straits), I do not like the later iterations of the multi tiered wage scales because they allow NO provision for upward movement. They're also unfair because one gets paid less for the same job simply because he joined the company after some arbitrary date. Why should you get paid less for doing the same exact job as someone else? Finally, the management who institute these things seldom if ever lead by example; that is to say even if the company is performing poorly, the CEO and his cadre never seem to take pay cuts themselves; they want pay cut for labor but not themselves. There was a cardinal rule in the service: never ask your subordinates to do something you yourself are unwilling to do. And folks wonder why relations between management and labor are worsening?
Ok, that concludes this explanation/rant.
A-9er
Well-Known Member
I hope CLEARER heads prevail in this. A strike will hurt everyone, big time.
Oh, and I wonder if management's pay is below industry standard?
F
Flying Saluki
Guest
The “B” scale still exists. As well as the “C” scale, “D” scale, “E” scale, and so on. It just takes the form of a regular pay scale that is negotiated with every contract. You look at any airline pay scale, and you see that the top step is about half again the bottom step. I’ve never understood why unions negotiate this. A junior dispatcher gets paid 2/3 what the senior dispatcher gets paid for the same production output.
Moreover, the graduated pay scale is what incentivizes mainline to farm out work to regionals, and allows them to whipsaw regionals against each other. Yet the unions keep negotiating them.
Seems to me a better way to do it would to be to have a fixed rate for all dispatchers, with overrides for those who take on extra or harder duty; e.g. international, desk instructor, ATC coordinator, etc.
A single pay rate would not handcuff a dispatcher to one employer, making lateral moves more manageable, which would make the job portable. This would introduce competition into the labor market, forcing airlines to compete for talent, thus driving wages even higher. It’s happening in the pilot world right now.
Yet we keep doing it the same old way.
Moreover, the graduated pay scale is what incentivizes mainline to farm out work to regionals, and allows them to whipsaw regionals against each other. Yet the unions keep negotiating them.
Seems to me a better way to do it would to be to have a fixed rate for all dispatchers, with overrides for those who take on extra or harder duty; e.g. international, desk instructor, ATC coordinator, etc.
A single pay rate would not handcuff a dispatcher to one employer, making lateral moves more manageable, which would make the job portable. This would introduce competition into the labor market, forcing airlines to compete for talent, thus driving wages even higher. It’s happening in the pilot world right now.
Yet we keep doing it the same old way.
bbmikej
Well-Known Member
Not to mention that while the aircraft are smaller. regional dispatchers do the same amount of flights if not more as domestic desks at the majors for 40% or less of the pay starting with the top out at the regionals being less than starting at the majors. From what I have heard, regional salaries used to be competitive with the majors and somewhere along the line it was decided that the majors needed a substantial pay raise while the regionals were fine getting 30 or 40 cents. With the stagnation of regional pay and the increasing economy it has gotten to the point that companies like Costco have raised their starting pay to the same level as dispatch. I'm not saying they don't deserve that pay. What I am saying is that the love of aviation mixed with the carrot being dangled in front of us of MAYBE one day being hired by a major has allowed a stressful, specialized profession with a $4-$5000 entry fee essentially regress to the point that it is almost more lucrative to work at a retail store.
And don't even let the "free flights" fool you. With the modern populous wanting cheaper flights and the airlines right-sizing their aircraft to the routes, you look 2 days ahead of time and the flights are all oversold. Lucky for us that we have the privilege to ride up front where the jumpseat is almost smaller than an economy seat, especially on regional aircraft. But, what if you wanted to go somewhere with family? You pretty much have to buy tickets to have a chance of everyone making it.
It's gotten to the point that I have to do some soul searching with what I want to do if I can't make it to a major in the next year or 2. With a 4 year degree comes the inevitable student loans these days. When 1/3 of you paycheck goes to those and you are forced to have a roommate to even get your rent down to another 1/3 of your paycheck it gets frustrating. Throw in gas, insurance, 401k, etc and you barely get left with 2 nickles to rub together to go somewhere with those "free flights" that they are essentially worthless to you.
So yes, I believe that UPS should at least get near the level of the major passenger airlines, but I also believe that the dispatch groups in the rest of the industry need to catch up a bit also. Maybe not as much, but at least show that the companies value their dispatch groups.
[/rant]
And don't even let the "free flights" fool you. With the modern populous wanting cheaper flights and the airlines right-sizing their aircraft to the routes, you look 2 days ahead of time and the flights are all oversold. Lucky for us that we have the privilege to ride up front where the jumpseat is almost smaller than an economy seat, especially on regional aircraft. But, what if you wanted to go somewhere with family? You pretty much have to buy tickets to have a chance of everyone making it.
It's gotten to the point that I have to do some soul searching with what I want to do if I can't make it to a major in the next year or 2. With a 4 year degree comes the inevitable student loans these days. When 1/3 of you paycheck goes to those and you are forced to have a roommate to even get your rent down to another 1/3 of your paycheck it gets frustrating. Throw in gas, insurance, 401k, etc and you barely get left with 2 nickles to rub together to go somewhere with those "free flights" that they are essentially worthless to you.
So yes, I believe that UPS should at least get near the level of the major passenger airlines, but I also believe that the dispatch groups in the rest of the industry need to catch up a bit also. Maybe not as much, but at least show that the companies value their dispatch groups.
[/rant]
Flagship_dxer
Penske Material
I think seniority more than pay handcuffs dispatchers to one employer. Your schedule, job security, workload and QOL are largely determined by your seniority. Even your pay premiums largely go on the basis of seniority as those jobs usually are seniority based. Seniority is partly why so few dispatchers at the majors move into management. A dispatch job is a steady paycheck and the union protects your job. In management, you are out the door as soon as the employer has no more need for your services.
For me at least, if I were to move to another legacy the pay cut would not be that severe and would quickly be made up and exceeded especially with OT. However, all the other legacy airlines have hired a bunch of people in recent years. I would have to go to another airline where I would likely be stuck for an extended time on a schedule I did not like, a desk that nobody else wants, and vacation when nobody else wants it. Plus I would be among the first in line to lose my job if the airline furloughed instead of having a large percentage of the workgroup underneath me.
F
Flying Saluki
Guest
Smaller airplanes bring smaller paychecks. That’s the nature of this industry. A Dash 8 needs as much support infrastructure as a 737, but brings in a fraction of the revenue.
Wages haven’t stagnated; they’ve regressed. Since the advent of the regional jet, regional airlines have evolved from flying 30-50 seat turboprops to 50-80 seats jets, and stage lengths have gone from 300 miles to 1500 miles. Today’s regional flight brings in 10 times the revenue yet, when adjusted for inflation, today’s regional dispatcher earns the same money as his predecessor two decades ago.
CRJInTheHeartOfTexas
бог благословит мать россия
How sad it is your Bernie bot burn mentality has pushed you to openly whine on a public forum about your employer. You should be greatful they haven't shown you the door for your piss poor attitude. MINE MINE MINE. ME ME ME.
My only contention is that there are those who believe they deserve “more” because other have more. That mindset does not help!
The day I see someone argue for more when the going is good and be willing to give up salary when the going gets bad for the company, I’ll start agreeing with the DESERVE MENTALITY
The day I see someone argue for more when the going is good and be willing to give up salary when the going gets bad for the company, I’ll start agreeing with the DESERVE MENTALITY
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that major airline dispatchers deserve to at least be on the same level, to be in line with what is industry standard?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No! It’s not a matter of deserving. It is simply your worth to the company. You may be worth more than say a dispatcher from United. Only your group and said company can determine that. It would certainly be nice if all major dispatchers were paid comparably, but it’s not something deserved.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
So, you’re saying that you’d be perfectly ok with making far less money than your peers at the rest of the airlines for doing the same job? If your company deemed your “worth” was +26% less than brand X, Y, and Z, you would be happy with that? You wouldn’t want your group to fight for what is standard in the industry? Come on now...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CRJInTheHeartOfTexas
бог благословит мать россия
You are welcome to go to delta instead of complaining on a public forum. I doubt they would want your attitude, though.
Do you have a dispatch license yet?
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
Ok, it appears a few of you are caught up on this word “deserve” but you are misinterpreting my use of this word and it’s application. It’s not a personal issue here, this isn’t about me. Let me explain more clearly where I’m coming from.
The major airline industry has a “standard”. It is defined by an established norm across the board between like groups in the industry. This goes for pilots, dispatchers, maintenance groups, and so forth. When I say we “deserve” industry standard, I simply mean that we should be in line with our peers based on the established standard.
Can you imagine a pilot group at one major airline simply sitting back and accepting far less pay than their peers, without fighting for at least what is standard amongst their peers doing the same exact work? Why would anyone expect a dispatch group or any other group for that matter to do that?
In poor economic times UPS dispatchers received a leading contract but now, during record profits we are supposed to lie down and accept substandard compensation? I don’t think so.
I think that the majority of us have fought our way to get to a major by similar means. We’ve taken jobs we didn’t want, lived paycheck to paycheck, made compromises for not only ourselves but our families, all just for the shot at making it to a top level job. There’s a lot of blood, sweat and tears that goes into it. Just ask the pilot group. We all start at the bottom and claw our way to hopefully the job of our dreams. I got the job of my dreams, and I worked really hard to get it. I’ll always remember the road that it took to get here and be appreciative for what I have. That doesn’t mean I need to lay down in the mud and accept substandard compensation as compared to my peers. I certainly don’t need anyone’s judgment. I can tell you that when the shoe is on the other foot, you’ll have our support.
I’m grateful for the group I work with, as well as many on this board who’ve gotten to experience this crazy ride with me. There’s been a lot of help received and help given and I’ll continue to pay it forward. That’s what this place is supposed to be about.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The major airline industry has a “standard”. It is defined by an established norm across the board between like groups in the industry. This goes for pilots, dispatchers, maintenance groups, and so forth. When I say we “deserve” industry standard, I simply mean that we should be in line with our peers based on the established standard.
Can you imagine a pilot group at one major airline simply sitting back and accepting far less pay than their peers, without fighting for at least what is standard amongst their peers doing the same exact work? Why would anyone expect a dispatch group or any other group for that matter to do that?
In poor economic times UPS dispatchers received a leading contract but now, during record profits we are supposed to lie down and accept substandard compensation? I don’t think so.
I think that the majority of us have fought our way to get to a major by similar means. We’ve taken jobs we didn’t want, lived paycheck to paycheck, made compromises for not only ourselves but our families, all just for the shot at making it to a top level job. There’s a lot of blood, sweat and tears that goes into it. Just ask the pilot group. We all start at the bottom and claw our way to hopefully the job of our dreams. I got the job of my dreams, and I worked really hard to get it. I’ll always remember the road that it took to get here and be appreciative for what I have. That doesn’t mean I need to lay down in the mud and accept substandard compensation as compared to my peers. I certainly don’t need anyone’s judgment. I can tell you that when the shoe is on the other foot, you’ll have our support.
I’m grateful for the group I work with, as well as many on this board who’ve gotten to experience this crazy ride with me. There’s been a lot of help received and help given and I’ll continue to pay it forward. That’s what this place is supposed to be about.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk