Missed Approach procedures while conducting practice approaches while IFR

[jynxyjoe]

Again, like some sort of documentation, please. If NY has formally made their position clear, then there has to be a document - something written down that was sent to you or your company you can provide.
There has to be a miscommunication here.

Eh, I don't think my company is gonna give me formal documents from tower controllers management to post on jetcareers. However I'll try to get the aim reference that was pointed to.

 

[z987k]

Eh, I don't think my company is gonna give me formal documents from tower controllers management to post on jetcareers. However I'll try to get the aim reference that was pointed to.

There had to have been a company wide email or bulletin or some sort of official communication. Perhaps JFK uses passenger pigeons to disseminate NOTAMS, which is why the rest of us are so in the dark. Otherwise how do you know?

 

[NovemberEcho]

When your buddy says "if you dont get instructions fly the missed" is that because he's thinking about the pilot must act like radios are out without comms?

Nope. His exact quote was "you'll get instructions immediately after saying you're going missed every time. But if for some reason you don't, fly the published as it's almost the same as what we give you anyway, left 180 and 1500' pretty much". No offense, but I'm going to take a JFK tower controllers word on this over a pilots.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I was talking to my buddy at JFK tower yesterday about this and he says you'll receive instructions as soon as you say you're going missed, but they're almost the same as the published missed anyway (31L example) and if for some reason you don't get instructions fly the published missed

Again, like some sort of documentation, please. If NY has formally made their position clear, then there has to be a document - something written down that was sent to you or your company you can provide.
There has to be a miscommunication here.

If I read it correctly, @NovemberEcho's description fits with what I've seen elsewhere, even with approaches to nontowered airports - fly the published missed for the approach unless you get a different instruction. The different instructions might be given before or during the approach or they might be given once reporting the missed (which you initially fly as published).

If that's what it is, I don't see an need for documentation other than FAR 91.123 which requires us to (a) fly the clearance we are given and (b) fly the instruction we are given. We fly the approach we are cleared for (which includes the published missed) unless we receive an overriding instruction. I don't see it as any different than being cleared for a SID or STAR or a flight route and then getting an instruction which changes it.

This dovetails to "practice" approaches. The difference between real and practice is repetition and multiple approaches, and flying the missed is part of it. It's actually pretty common to get one of the following sequences:

1. Cleared for the approach.
2. Fly it and go missed, beginning the missed approach procedure.
3. Report on the missed to ATC.
4. ATC sends you somewhere (which may not be part of the missed approach procedure) as soon as you report.

or

1. Cleared for an approach with an instruction to climb straight out on the missed.
2. Fly it and go missed, climbing straight out.
3. Report on the missed to ATC.
4. ATC sends you somewhere.

Either way. Just normal. Am I missing something or is it just that , as an instrument instructor and pilot who practices, I just get more missed approaches, so I see it as no big deal?

 

[NovemberEcho]

To give another example, the best approach we have at TEB is the RNAV 19. But we can't use it because the published missed puts you right in the EWR 22L final. We can't create some LOA with TEB tower with alternate missed approach instructions. We would have to issue them to every single aircraft executing the approach. Every rule and procedure in ATC is designed to protect for the "what if" 1 out of a 1000 thing that could go wrong.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Nope. His exact quote was "you'll get instructions immediately after saying you're going missed every time. But if for some reason you don't, fly the published as it's almost the same as what we give you anyway, left 180 and 1500' pretty much". No offense, but I'm going to take a JFK tower controllers word on this over a pilots.

Im not offended but im gonna do what im told by the company that pays me.

 

[Kingairer]

"In the event of a missed we will comply with the towers instructions, in lieu of that we will fly the published missed".

 

[Kingairer]

Yeah, these hanger talk scenarios are absurd and they go to a level of absurdity regularly. MSP, JFK, LGA, and multiple other towers have clarified you WILL in fact wait for clearance before doing any published missed. We know because we've had guys go missed, fly the published, and go right into traffic.

Before we go into any other bizarre hanger talk about what ifs and, "but a fire", stop. Ils 31L results in a missed because you can't see the runway, you wait to be told to go published. Dead stop. Fly straight, climb, tell them youre going missed. FAA can't possibly be more clear with that. They can't.

You can see that "fly straight ahead" wouldnt work everywhere, right? We are chasing rabbits here, and we have a reasonable expectation our radios arent going to suddently fail, so we WILL be able to report our missed and get a tower instruction, but a blanket statement of "fly straight ahead", nah.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You can see that "fly straight ahead" wouldnt work everywhere, right? We are chasing rabbits here, and we have a reasonable expectation our radios arent going to suddently fail, so we WILL be able to report our missed and get a tower instruction, but a blanket statement of "fly straight ahead", nah.

I'm not flying straight ahead forever dude. What we can't have is a snap roll off the missed because ninja hands and white needles nav commanded it. Which we've had. Fifteen seconds to get your next instruction, meanwhile fly without turning like a big boy.

 

[Kingairer]

I'm not flying straight ahead forever dude. What we can't have is a snap roll off the missed because ninja hands and white needles nav commanded it. Which we've had. Fifteen seconds to get your next instruction, meanwhile fly without turning like a big boy.

Some "pilot stuff" comes into play here as well, P56?
Which approach have you had problems? Also curious what altitude you set.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Some "pilot stuff" comes into play here as well, P56?
Which approach have you had problems? Also curious what altitude you set.

P56 is a special dept missed, which we deal with in our 10-7, so you do have to read just like every other airport. Again, you make up whichever critical ebgine failed upside down and the FO broke the vsi because the all pitot static somehow lost functionality... I am talking about a vanilla, plain jane, missed. Everyone is spring loaded to some crazy scenario or a one off for situations that rarely happen inside an event that rarely happens they can't just fly a vanilla missed because they're gonna crash into imaginary moutains upside down.

 

[Kingairer]

P56 is a special dept missed, which we deal with in our 10-7, so you do have to read just like every other airport. Again, you make up whichever critical ebgine failed upside down and the FO broke the vsi because the all pitot static somehow lost functionality... I am talking about a vanilla, plain jane, missed. Everyone is spring loaded to some crazy scenario or a one off for situations that rarely happen inside an event that rarely happens they can't just fly a vanilla missed because they're gonna crash into imaginary moutains upside down.

Im curious which approach yall are having people turn out on.
1) You shouldnt be turning to go to some fix down the road until youve reached the missed approach point anyways, so unless you 'missed' due to visibility (which i would assume would be rare with CATIII availability). So if you're going around on your own, and determined to throw your headset in the floor and flying the missed approach, you're likely to be flying straight ahead for a good while anyways just to reach the MAP anyways before any turn would happen. So im just wondering what approach these "ninjas" are snap rolling to another fix? But, say Im cleared for the ILS, missed, and for whatever odd reason i couldnt get a hold of ATC, im flying the published missed.
2) If ATC is sending you around due to traffic, then itll include an instruction or an instruction will immediately follow.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Im curious which approach yall are having people turn out on.
1) You shouldnt be turning to go to some fix down the road until youve reached the missed approach point anyways, so unless you 'missed' due to visibility (which i would assume would be rare with CATIII availability). So if you're going around on your own, and determined to throw your headset in the floor and flying the missed approach, you're likely to be flying straight ahead for a good while anyways just to reach the MAP anyways before any turn would happen. So im just wondering what approach these "ninjas" are snap rolling to another fix? But, say Im cleared for the ILS, missed, and for whatever odd reason i couldnt get a hold of ATC, im flying the published missed.
2) If ATC is sending you around due to traffic, then itll include an instruction or an instruction will immediately follow.

I know it's four pages deep now but ive said the ones.

Why wouldn't you be able to get ahold of ATC?

 

[Kingairer]

I know it's four pages deep now but ive said the ones.

Why wouldn't you be able to get ahold of ATC?

I see NovemberEcho is saying exactly what im saying above. I dont think i need to add to it really. Perhaps youre talking about being cleared the Visual approach?.

Nope. His exact quote was "you'll get instructions immediately after saying you're going missed every time. But if for some reason you don't, fly the published as it's almost the same as what we give you anyway, left 180 and 1500' pretty much". No offense, but I'm going to take a JFK tower controllers word on this over a pilots.

 

[Roger Roger]

Zach, you’ve gone missed at a towered airport before right?

 

[jynxyjoe]

I see NovemberEcho is saying exactly what im saying above. I dont think i need to add to it really. Perhaps youre talking about being cleared the Visual approach?.

Sure.

Alright guys, been fun.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I know it's four pages deep now but ive said the ones.

Why wouldn't you be able to get ahold of ATC?

Only vanilla reason to not get ahold of ATC right away is maybe your going missed broadcast was stepped on, so the controller may not realize right away you're going missed

 

[jynxyjoe]

Only vanilla reason to not get ahold of ATC right away is maybe your going missed broadcast was stepped on, so the controller may not realize right away you're going missed

I agree. We're still gonna fly straight and clean up the aircraft while the non fly tries again.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I agree. We're still gonna fly straight and clean up the aircraft while the non fly tries again.

But you said you're out.

 

[jynxyjoe]

But you said you're out.

I am out now, if i get ahold of the aim I'll look up the reference, otherwise ill necropost in the winter on recurrent.