Missed Approach procedures while conducting practice approaches while IFR

[JetBlast]

Towered fields have their own LOA for different runway configurations and those don't appear as a published missed.

I could see that, I work with 5 approach controls and hadn’t really given much thought to their internal LOAs. It’s a shame they don’t put some form of that on the plates, and give pilots something realistic to expect. All our agreements with approaches dictate what altitude and routings are required per aircraft type regarding arrivals and departures and a few other emergency related items, runway configuration and other inconsequential items pilots don’t care about.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I could see that, I work with 5 approach controls and hadn’t really given much thought to their internal LOAs. It’s a shame they don’t put some form of that on the plates, and give pilots something realistic to expect. All our agreements with approaches dictate what altitude and routings are required per aircraft type regarding arrivals and departures and a few other emergency related items, runway configuration and other inconsequential items pilots don’t care about.

It's cool to see how its all put together, but after denver showed me up in the tower for about 5 minutes in of the 17 runway configs i about fell asleep

 

[z987k]

Yeah, these hanger talk scenarios are absurd and they go to a level of absurdity regularly. MSP, JFK, LGA, and multiple other towers have clarified you WILL in fact wait for clearance before doing any published missed. We know because we've had guys go missed, fly the published, and go right into traffic.

So rarely going to JFK, I looked up the approaches and the published misses. A couple have fairly early turns. Then I checked the NOTAMS. There is a missed that's changed, but nothing you're talking about. So, if I were to operate into JFK tomorrow and it's IMC and we go missed, the controlled better expect us to fly the published missed absent other instructions because that is what everyone in the entire world that isn't apparently familiar with localisms that frankly are not rules at all if not published is going to do. If I'm missing where it says ignore all other flying rules and deviate from your clearance and we're not protecting the missed because this is JFK, please show me where that's published. If it's not published it's irrelevant and cannot be even remotely expected of anyone.
On the ILS 31L, we're turning at 500ft, if the controller sees that and corrects for traffic it's on him. We probably have the time to say we're missed before 500, but if not, it's still 100% on the controller for not protecting the airspace and not issuing alternate missed approach instructions prior.

 

[jynxyjoe]

So rarely going to JFK, I looked up the approaches and the published misses. A couple have fairly early turns. Then I checked the NOTAMS. There is a missed that's changed, but nothing you're talking about. So, if I were to operate into JFK tomorrow and it's IMC and we go missed, the controlled better expect us to fly the published missed absent other instructions because that is what everyone in the entire world that isn't apparently familiar with localisms that frankly are not rules at all if not published is going to do. If I'm missing where it says ignore all other flying rules and deviate from your clearance and we're not protecting the missed because this is JFK, please show me where that's published. If it's not published it's irrelevant and cannot be even remotely expected of anyone.
On the ILS 31L, we're turning at 500ft, if the controller sees that and corrects for traffic it's on him. We probably have the time to say we're missed before 500, but if not, it's still 100% on the controller for not protecting the airspace and not issuing alternate missed approach instructions prior.

It's been shown conclusively that it's not on them.

Do whatever you want man. That's why there's an asap program.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I've never heard of an LOA for missed approach procedures.

 

[z987k]

It's been shown conclusively that it's not on them.

Do whatever you want man. That's why there's an asap program.

Ok, well can you show me? Because what you're talking about is beyond not normal.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I've never heard of an LOA for missed approach procedures.

When ur working into other peoples airspace its common. Or, whenever Cleveland center works with any other center.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Ok, well can you show me? Because what you're talking about is beyond not normal.

It actually is normal, once its pointed out in a sim pruposefully you go "holy crap" of course there's an AIM ref for everything but I'm not interested. I just do airline flying, its a point of concentration and it's something you'll run across or you won't.

Look man, when i say do what you want i mean that only, not being anymore disengaging than normal. You like rick and morty so do i, lets just agree we both got brains that work and we move on. Theres season four coming up, not interested in fighting.

 

[NovemberEcho]

When ur working into other peoples airspace its common. Or, whenever Cleveland center works with any other center.

Uh yep, I work several airports where the controlling facility varies based on runway landing, and no LOA's for missed approach. Lots of LOA's for the approach, but none for the missed.

 

[z987k]

It actually is normal, once its pointed out in a sim pruposefully you go "holy crap" of course there's an AIM ref for everything but I'm not interested. I just do airline flying, its a point of concentration and it's something you'll run across or you won't.

Look man, when i say do what you want i mean that only, not being anymore disengaging than normal. You like rick and morty so do i, lets just agree we both got brains that work and we move on. Theres season four coming up, not interested in fighting.

I'm not interested in fighting either. I'd like to learn. You've made extraordinary claims IMO, and have provided nothing of evidence for them.

@NovemberEcho you work in that general area... perhaps you could shed some light?

 

[NovemberEcho]

I'm not interested in fighting either. I'd like to learn. You've made extraordinary claims IMO, and have provided nothing of evidence for them.

@NovemberEcho you work in that general area... perhaps you could shed some light?

I don't know crap about JFK

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm not interested in fighting either. I'd like to learn. You've made extraordinary claims IMO, and have provided nothing of evidence for them.

@NovemberEcho you work in that general area... perhaps you could shed some light?

Well. Ugh. Im knee deep in vanilla Porter and deer jerky. Let me see if any one can point to the aim reference that was the duh moment.

 

[Roger Roger]

Well. Ugh. Im knee deep in vanilla Porter.

Let’s just stop right there, you’re making me thirsty and I just started 10 days on so very limited drinking for me.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Let’s just stop right there, you’re making me thirsty and I just started 10 days on so very limited drinking for me.

Yeah man, Captain really got on ur ass about that. Look man, I'll be by to pick u up at 7am long day going down to the docks to check out that lead. Keep it easy going.

You can totally say ass on here.

 

[Stinger]

If the approach controller thinks there's going to be a chance you won't be able to land, they should either tell the pilot some sort of planned instruction or tell the tower what to give the pilot.
Most facilities have some LOA with the tower that will say what heading/altitude a tower will give an aircraft that does an unplanned go-around. Those that don't, the tower will issue instructions on a case-by-case basis depending on traffic/weather/terrain/etc...

 

[JetBlast]

I've never heard of an LOA for missed approach procedures.

Me either, but what do I know, I’m just a center puke

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

This JFK argument has me curious. Exactly what is the instruction? The words used make a difference.

If it's "do not execute the published missed without further clearance," it makes no sense. You're really going to remain at 200 AGL?

OTOH, it it's something like "on the missed, climb straight out (or on a certain heading)," that's pretty normal in busy airspace areas, and an obvious alternative missed instruction.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I was talking to my buddy at JFK tower yesterday about this and he says you'll receive instructions as soon as you say you're going missed, but they're almost the same as the published missed anyway (31L example) and if for some reason you don't get instructions fly the published missed

 

[jynxyjoe]

I was talking to my buddy at JFK tower yesterday about this and he says you'll receive instructions as soon as you say you're going missed, but they're almost the same as the published missed anyway (31L example) and if for some reason you don't get instructions fly the published missed

When your buddy says "if you dont get instructions fly the missed" is that because he's thinking about the pilot must act like radios are out without comms? This isn't a hanger talk example, you have to get clearance to fly the published missed or get their headings and alts. What I didn't realize, and i would guess many of our pilots at my company didn't realize, is tower formalizes all those missed procedures and we don't have a good indication in the chart of what that is.

NY has had it happen too, which is why it was an area of focus, but MSP has a hardly used runway which when they go to that single runway op, the missed approach puts you into downwind ifr traffic. Our guys have done it.

You need to be cleared to go missed, and if your radio is working, continue climbing to your flaps retract altitude until you get that clearance. In the runway 31L example the place you must turn is 6 miles beyond the end of the almost 3 mile long runway.

Added in post: Both NY towers have formally made their position clear on this matter to my company. Don't go executing the published missed unless you get clearance for it. To re emphasize, this is a normal, vanilla approach, don't go down rabbit holes ofZOMG now the radios don't work too and the engine is on fire and the other is shut down.

 

[z987k]

When your buddy says "if you dont get instructions fly the missed" is that because he's thinking about the pilot must act like radios are out without comms? This isn't a hanger talk example, you have to get clearance to fly the published missed or get their headings and alts. What I didn't realize, and i would guess many of our pilots at my company didn't realize, is tower formalizes all those missed procedures and we don't have a good indication in the chart of what that is.

NY has had it happen too, which is why it was an area of focus, but MSP has a hardly used runway which when they go to that single runway op, the missed approach puts you into downwind ifr traffic. Our guys have done it.

You need to be cleared to go missed, and if your radio is working, continue climbing to your flaps retract altitude until you get that clearance. In the runway 31L example the place you must turn is 6 miles beyond the end of the almost 3 mile long runway.

Added in post: Both NY towers have formally made their position clear on this matter to my company. Don't go executing the published missed unless you get clearance for it. To re emphasize, this is a normal, vanilla approach, don't go down rabbit holes ofZOMG now the radios don't work too and the engine is on fire and the other is shut down.

Again, like some sort of documentation, please. If NY has formally made their position clear, then there has to be a document - something written down that was sent to you or your company you can provide.
There has to be a miscommunication here.