Spirit Contract Now

[Nick]

Because they don’t understand it.

I think there is truth to this.

And the smaller the category/base, the better PBS is.

I remember bidding for lines around 80% in a base with 250 pilots per seat. If I wanted a line, it'd be whatever line was left. It might not have the variety I'd want even though the total array of trips left at the "scraps" level would have had some that were more desirable than others.

Different scenario, line bidding in a base of only 60 pilots per seat and around 70% in category. Forget it. Whatever I wanted, there was no line left that had it.

And even when I was up to 50%, so many lines would have most of what I wanted but then one junk trip in there. Or a line of all the types of trips I wanted, but on the wrong days.

PBS clears all of that up. I really think the mantra of "PBS screws junior people" is a lack of understanding and lack of realization that the junior people's lines would be awful, too.

But the work rules must be there to support a preferential bidding system.

 

[Kingairer]

With old line bidding in a large base, id have to dig through about 350+ lines, and prioritize those in order of preference, took for ever. I can bid PBS in about 10 min. Award 1 days, Award 2 days. Avoid Redeyes. done!

 

[Box hauler]

With old line bidding in a large base, id have to dig through about 350+ lines, and prioritize those in order of preference, took for ever. I can bid PBS in about 10 min. Award 1 days, Award 2 days. Avoid Redeyes. done!

 

[NickH]

Well that knocked the polish off the share price. That means you guys might have a good deal!

 

[Eagle421flyer]

So imo it’s a little early to jump on the vote yes/vote no band wagon until we see all the details. I can say that if you look at the fo pay, JetBlue’s current fo pay is higher then the proposed one (true only by a dollar but JB will also prob be going up before we would renegotiate) so that doesn’t make me warm and fuzzy.


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[Box hauler]

So imo it’s a little early to jump on the vote yes/vote no band wagon until we see all the details. I can say that if you look at the fo pay, JetBlue’s current fo pay is higher then the proposed one (true only by a dollar but JB will also prob be going up before we would renegotiate) so that doesn’t make me warm and fuzzy.


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It depends on what years you look at as far as pay but I see what you mean. Also do you know if the APC published rate include the pay bump of 8%? I believe they were given during negotiations last year? Just curious.

 

[Inverted25]

How long does it take to hold DTW

 

[Eagle421flyer]

So imo it’s a little early to jump on the vote yes/vote no band wagon until we see all the details. I can say that if you look at the fo pay, JetBlue’s current fo pay is higher then the proposed one (true only by a dollar but JB will also prob be going up before we would renegotiate) so that doesn’t make me warm and fuzzy.


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It depends on what years you look at as far as pay but I see what you mean. Also do you know if the APC published rate include the pay bump of 8%? I believe they were given during negotiations last year? Just curious.

Good question not sure if it does include the pay bump JB got.


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[Box hauler]

How long does it take to hold DTW

People in training already have it as an award. Junior line holder is probably around a 5/17 hire, maybe a little later depending on how people bid.

 

[Cruise]

I'm definitely a yes unless there's something seriously wrong with the TA language. That said, I can't imagine there's anything in there that would warrant a no vote. Sure, the rates aren't quite where I'd like them. However, there are large gains across the board. We're tightening scope significantly...and without that, the CBA isn't worth a damn thing. Not sure, but looks like most legacies have lots 'o small jets that say LEGACY XYZ on the side, but aren't operated by said legacy airline. We're locking that down with this TA. Our current book LTD is abysmal...we're also moving that to industry standard, same occupation 'till 65 with this TA. You're only one medical away from being out on your ass. HUGE WIN for us. Our current retirement is nowhere near industry standard. With this TA we're going to be there before the amendable date, and are making a huge gain date of signing. PBS isn't the boogie man many like to make it out to be. It's nothing more than computer software. It'll do whatever the contractual language tells it to do.

Obviously we need to see the full language. But I really don't expect there to be any reason to vote no once language is published. Delaying major gains in the hope of adding the cherry on top is a fools errand. The economy could tank tomorrow. You could be out on disability tomorrow. The company could announce a code-share agreement tomorrow. Any single one of those things could lock us in the bottom of the industry (or you out of the industry) with a blink of the eye. This TA shores up every single one of those areas. We get major gains now and work on minor improvements down the road, either through the LOA process or during the next bargaining cycle.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

So imo it’s a little early to jump on the vote yes/vote no band wagon until we see all the details. I can say that if you look at the fo pay, JetBlue’s current fo pay is higher then the proposed one (true only by a dollar but JB will also prob be going up before we would renegotiate) so that doesn’t make me warm and fuzzy.


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You're really going to quibble about a dollar? Also, if JB rates do go up, before you guys reenter Section Six. That's what pattern bargaining is for!

 

[learhawkerbe400]

We're tightening scope significantly...and without that, the CBA isn't worth a damn thing. Not sure, but looks like most legacies have lots 'o small jets that say LEGACY XYZ on the side, but aren't operated by said legacy airline. We're locking that down with this TA.

Thats always a good thing. But you guys also don’t operate into State College, Jacksonville NC, Lynchburg VA, etc and more than likely never will.

 

[Eagle421flyer]

You're really going to quibble about a dollar? Also, if JB rates do go up, before you guys reenter Section Six. That's what pattern bargaining is for!

I'm not quibbling over a dollar but my point is that the new rates they offered still aren't as good as JB now. I would be a lot happier if the dos+4 rates they offered were the base and then they went up. Basically I'm not impressed with the pay rates in exchange for pbs. And yes my previous airline had PBS and it was a disaster. Also no airline has ever voluntarily voted pbs in, its either been done in BK, or it was there when the airline started (JB) or in Allegiants case it was just shoved in. PBS will require fewer pilots, sure maybe not a lot, but I've also been furloughed by "not a lot." Don't get me wrong I'm happy about scope being in there (though we have no idea what the wording is soooo) and I'm very happy LTD is there as our LTD is crap and I pay an extra $100 a month for an private policy.

 

[jtrain609]

I'm not quibbling over a dollar but my point is that the new rates they offered still aren't as good as JB now. I would be a lot happier if the dos+4 rates they offered were the base and then they went up. Basically I'm not impressed with the pay rates in exchange for pbs. And yes my previous airline had PBS and it was a disaster. Also no airline has ever voluntarily voted pbs in, its either been done in BK, or it was there when the airline started (JB) or in Allegiants case it was just shoved in. PBS will require fewer pilots, sure maybe not a lot, but I've also been furloughed by "not a lot." Don't get me wrong I'm happy about scope being in there (though we have no idea what the wording is soooo) and I'm very happy LTD is there as our LTD is crap and I pay an extra $100 a month for an private policy.

They're higher than JetBlue now.

First year Airbus FO pay is $54, second year is $95, third year is $111.

 

[Eagle421flyer]

They're higher than JetBlue now.

First year Airbus FO pay is $54, second year is $95, third year is $111.

We don't know what the new 1-4years would be yet they only sent out year 5 which is $126. It's not that the rates they sent out were bad, I was just hopefully they would be across the board higher then what other airlines had now, so when you guys (and hopefully other airlines) go up we wouldn't be at the bottom again.

 

[Cruise]

Thats always a good thing. But you guys also don’t operate into State College, Jacksonville NC, Lynchburg VA, etc and more than likely never will.

I completely disagree. We're growing rapidly. We don't serve State College or Jacksonville but we do go to Latrobe and Myrtle Beach. We go to plenty smaller markets that could be served by RJs or similar...Akron/ Canton, Buffalo/ Niagra, etc... But let's take it one step farther; we do plenty international flying as well. I'd like to keep that flying versus the company farming it out to some foreign carrier. What happens when they announce a desire to go deeper into S. America or Europe? Sure would be nice to have the scope protection to ensure that flying is being done by Spirit pilots and not some subsidiary or code-share airline!

 

[Seggy]

I completely disagree. We're growing rapidly. We don't serve State College or Jacksonville but we do go to Latrobe and Myrtle Beach. We go to plenty smaller markets that could be served by RJs or similar...Akron/ Canton, Buffalo/ Niagra, etc... But let's take it one step farther; we do plenty international flying as well. I'd like to keep that flying versus the company farming it out to some foreign carrier. What happens when they announce a desire to go deeper into S. America or Europe? Sure would be nice to have the scope protection to ensure that flying is being done by Spirit pilots and not some subsidiary or code-share airline!

Look at the new Frontier/Volaris code share (announced yesterday) on why scope is so important.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I was just hopefully they would be across the board higher then what other airlines had now

That was an unrealistic expectation. Honestly, I’m amazed you got what you got. It leads me to suspect that management was desperate to get a deal done for either a merger or a large aircraft order.

Consider this: the last time I was at a bargaining table with Bob Fornaro and he gave us almost everything we wanted after years of stalling, the Southwest merger was announced shortly thereafter.

 

[Seggy]

But would you stay there if this TA had some up when you were there?

Don’t know. Spirit has some excellent QOL provisions (I was getting 18 days off a month as a reserve pilot there) and would have been happy to call it a career there.

The reason I left was a no brainer considering the situation I faced.

That said, as stated, I would have had no problem staying at Spirit.

 

[Seggy]

That was an unrealistic expectation. Honestly, I’m amazed you got what you got. It leads me to suspect that management was desperate to get a deal done for either a merger or a large aircraft order.

Consider this: the last time I was at a bargaining table with Bob Fornaro and he gave us almost everything we wanted, the Southwest merger was announced shortly thereafter.

FWIW, a Spirit Winger can tell more but from my friends there a huge impediment to the negotiation process left (was fired?) for another job in India.

Funny story I heard that this guy, at the NMB offices in DC, was trying to intimidate what he thought were the Spirit negotiators, except they were from JetBlue.