United to Buy ExpressJet?

matthew said:
Where did I say I could do a better job? Where did I attack union volunteers or their effort? This is why I don't say much on here. Because the lot of you think everything's an argument. You think you're talking to a union hater and you're not. I simply believe pilots deserve not to get screwed. But we are our own worst enemies sometimes and this thread proves it.
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You're saying the NC is screwing the pilot group. I'm not making that up. You just said it. I quoted exactly what you said.
 
matthew said:
I see what you're saying. And I can see why you think your effort is wasted. But it's not. It's simply a way for some of us who think the company is holding back to offer more. Clearly this isn't in line with the majority of skywest pilots. And I'm ok with that. The whole reason I put my opinion out there is because I like to have these conversations.
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This difference here is that you think the company is holding back because you have some vague idea that "they" always do. Do you really think that when the company tells me no at the table, that I go "yup, ok. Well, we tried..."?

In reality, we beg, plead, cajole, threaten. Ask, "why" like a whiny preschooler (I have one, ask me what it's like.) We make them show us the math. We fix their faulty math with help from ALPA's amazing E&FA department. When I bring a TA out to present to the pilot group, it's because I've squeezed the company for every dime I can. And, it's far from the company's first offer. In fact, it's a running joke among negotiators how often we hear "last and final offer."

You do have every right to vote no. That's democracy. And, a no vote is sometimes the right call, as stated above. But, please don't vote no based on some vague notion that "there's more out there."
 
Oh, and to correct the thread drift...

United buying XJT? Uh, IDK. I will when there's a press release. More importantly, did you hear that Johnny and Suzie were going steady?
 
Hammertime said:
@ATN_Pilot is right. As an ALPA negotiator that has been doing this for four years, I'm honestly burnt out, mostly because of attitudes such as yours @matthew

I sit at the table with the company, trade multiple proposals back and forth, work for weeks to get that .25 credit for vacation pay. Put up with the company lawyer's boorish behavior. Achieve some major gains in the end. Then, I got out to present it to the pilot group and get this:

"But did you think about X?"
"Yes. Yes, I did, and we weren't able to achieve that because of Y."
"Well what about W? Why don't we have that? Company B has it?"
"...*sigh* Because we have Z."
"Well, it sounds like a good deal, but I'm going to vote no anyway. You never vote yes on a first contract. Thanks for all your hard work!"

ME: *Thanks for all my hard work!?! Your no vote throws months of my hard work in the trash! What the fudge!*
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There is an other side to that though. I respect the hard work that people do in order to negotiate with the scumbags that run airlines. I really do. But at XJT/ASA we had the union blow sunshine up our ass about an "industry leading" contract that clearly wasn't. The negotiating committee's job is to negotiate. Just because you worked hard doesn't mean that the fruits of your labor are necessarily worth voting yes for.
 
Aside from the massive amounts of groupthink in this thread, what is everyone's opinion on United buying XJT? I only ask because the article only seems like it's a possibility, not thst It's set in stone.

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Interesting how everyone is crucifying the guy who blithely admitted to voting no on the first offer, based on the fact he feels first offers are usually bad, while completely ignoring the poster who claims to have voted yes on a bad deal in a strategic plan to rile up the no voters to force management to come back with a better offer after reaching agreement/ratifying the first, by voting yes, on a bad agreement.....

I voted no. It was a garbage offer and an expression of no confidence in SAPA.

People are attempting to bring ALPA on property here, one of the reasons given most commonly against this is the perception ALPA leadership, down to the individual MEC members, is arrogant and self serving, living the high life on the dues of members while suckling the teat of management, condescendingly dismissing the voice of membership. I disagree and believe it's time, but food for thought.



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jynxyjoe said:
LOL. Pretty funny.
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It is, lots of misperceptions and more often willful ignorance, but nonetheless.

It's better when the topic comes up and some pilot starts spouting what seem to be quotes from the "Fountainhead" or some other adolescent Ayn Rand drivel.

Best to just smile, shrug, give them their due, buy them a beer and have fun.


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matthew said:
The whole reason I put my opinion out there is because I like to have these conversations.
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My suggestion would be to ask more questions and do more listening rather than putting your opinions out there. Learn from the people who have been there and done that.

Screaming_Emu said:
But at XJT/ASA we had the union blow sunshine up our ass about an "industry leading" contract that clearly wasn't.
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I don't think they were "blowing sunshine up your ass." I suspect they truly believed it was industry leading. There are many ways to measure such a thing, based upon your perspective and what you prioritize. People who volunteer for union work are rarely doing something untoward. Usually when you think they are, their perspective is simply different than yours. In all my years of union work, I only ran into a small handful of people who were truly lying scumbags who weren't really there for the right reasons. Now, I met a lot of people who didn't really belong there because they didn't have the intelligence, skill-set, whatever for the job. But that's different than consciously trying to screw people over.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
My suggestion would be to ask more questions and do more listening rather than putting your opinions out there. Learn from the people who have been there and done that.



I don't think they were "blowing sunshine up your ass." I suspect they truly believed it was industry leading. There are many ways to measure such a thing, based upon your perspective and what you prioritize. People who volunteer for union work are rarely doing something untoward. Usually when you think they are, their perspective is simply different than yours. In all my years of union work, I only ran into a small handful of people who were truly lying scumbags who weren't really there for the right reasons. Now, I met a lot of people who didn't really belong there because they didn't have the intelligence, skill-set, whatever for the job. But that's different than consciously trying to screw people over.
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I might have listened if they said "this is the best we can do...if we don't we're hosed." But this "industry leading" contract was worse than the contract we already had in a lot of ways.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I might have listened if they said "this is the best we can do...if we don't we're hosed." But this "industry leading" contract was worse than the contract we already had in a lot of ways.
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Yeah, but if I talked to them, I guarantee they could list off dozens of ways that it's a lot better and "industry leading," which is the kind of nebulous term that can mean just about anything. That's what I mean by perspective and priorities. I doubt they were lying to you. The things they cared about in the contract were probably just different than yours.
 
Hammertime said:
Oh, and to correct the thread drift...

United buying XJT? Uh, IDK. I will when there's a press release. More importantly, did you hear that Johnny and Suzie were going steady?
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My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, but if I talked to them, I guarantee they could list off dozens of ways that it's a lot better and "industry leading," which is the kind of nebulous term that can mean just about anything. That's what I mean by perspective and priorities. I doubt they were lying to you. The things they cared about in the contract were probably just different than yours.
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And different from 90+% of the pilot group.
 
matthew said:
Screwed by the company, not the NC. Continue filling in the blanks with whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
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I think what you're trying to say is that you believe you can help your negotiators out by voting down any first agreement, because that'll show the company you mean business and will only take the best deal.

What you're actually saying is that you don't understand the process, and you don't trust your negotiators to get it right the first time.

It's you're right to think whatever you want, but from what you've presented I disagree with you.
 
Sooooooooo, how can UAL buy XJT when it’s a subsidiary? I guess what I’m wondering is how would that affect the Skywest share holders.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, but if I talked to them, I guarantee they could list off dozens of ways that it's a lot better and "industry leading," which is the kind of nebulous term that can mean just about anything. That's what I mean by perspective and priorities. I doubt they were lying to you. The things they cared about in the contract were probably just different than yours.
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I think a lot of the consternation among the OO pilot group rises from the surreptitious way this "TA" was initially negotiated, and then presented with our representatives hard sell. I don't remember ever hearing of negotiations prior to having this rubbish presented to the pilot group so our concerns and desires could be addressed.

I think there would be less heads exploding had they dropped the "TA" charade and just presented it as an adjustment to policy bequeathed by management and left it at that.


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Cazadores said:
It is, lots of misperceptions and more often willful ignorance, but nonetheless.

It's better when the topic comes up and some pilot starts spouting what seem to be quotes from the "Fountainhead" or some other adolescent Ayn Rand drivel.

Best to just smile, shrug, give them their due, buy them a beer and have fun.


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No. Im afraid when people intimate or flatly say volunteers are milking the tit of the dues, i say "thats a dumb thing to say".

When someone on the regional level says ot believe it I would say, "you know you're a taker right?" Endeavor now is probably putting more into the system than they are taking but most regionals are takers and its real airlines putting in more than they take who should be thanked for helping regionals.
 
Acrofox said:
I strategically voted yes. *Shrug*

I believe that there's a good chance that the aggression growing among the "I VOTED NOO OMGOMG OMG MUST KILL ANY YES VOTERS" folk will potentially bring the company back to the table to negotiate a better deal than we ever would have gotten from their second or third offer. Meaning I also don't want to quiet the rabble. It serves its purpose.

Am I defending my vote? No. I'm explaining why I voted yes. We will see, in time, how things play out. I'm just tired of seeing people not stand up for their votes, one way or another, unless theirs is the popular opinion in the school yard.

You're welcome to hate me if you like. I feel my actions were for the betterment of the pilot group, which is why I voted the way that I did. 'Yes' voters didn't expect an immediate tactical advantage.

Carry on.

-Fox
(NB—I was awarded a line this month with 20 days off, including christmas and christmas week. I say 'was awarded' because I haven't actually been able to fly it. I've been on medical leave for two months, since this is the first year of reporting being transgender to the feds, and they're very, very, very, very slow apparently...)
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Hate you?! No way. I'm not on board that attacking the yes/no voters because I disagree. Seems as though that's all I see on our FB page.
 
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