C Series hits a.....snag

jynxyjoe said:
.... Sometimes, when it comes to the market, you ride the wave and other times you sink.

If Canada wants to bail them out fine, but that boring 737 keeps making Boeing money because that's what customers (airlines) wanted.

Boeing innovated on the 787 but Boeing is kinda being crapped on a little because the old product that they still makes them money is still being offered, purchased, and built.....
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Airlines can't buy what nobody has made. The days when C.R. Smith could call Donald Douglas and tell him that 'American would buy some DC-3s if it had the following...,' are pretty much over.

Three other things enter into these decisions. (1.) No new airliner had arrived on time in the past 50 years, if ever. (2.) The people who spend money on these things are pretty conservative on new stuff. Look how long it took winglets to become the standard, even though they saved gas and increased performance from the start. (3.) the amount of time from concept specs with pretty pictures, to an aircraft you can put into service is so long that things they can't control or project very well - economic cycles, the price of fuel, staffing realities, and more - make realistic needs projection into a ouija board game.

Steering Boeing in new directions is like threading a 747 through the eye of a needle. In retrospect, they blew it when they killed the 757 pre-maturely and made it impossible to backtrack on that decision. Then they blew the process of outsourcing on the 787, and the cost overruns left them gun-shy on the huge R&D expenditures to create a clean-sheet design. Which, in turn, left them sticking with the 737 for one design iteration too long for the long-term health of the company, despite a fattened order book.

Perhaps they should buy one of the new kids on the block: Bombardier for the C-100s-300s, or one of the Chinese or Russian companies for a true 737 replacement. But they probably won't.
 
FloridaLarry said:
despite a fattened order book.
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Eh, I'm not a marketing or sales expert. Ive often lamented the blown money due to poor QC om the 787, but there's certainly an ability to pivot with a fattened order book.

The 757 ran out of orders and they hoped the 737 stretch would fill in the gaps left by poor timing. Idk man, maybe if the taxpayers wanna give boeing a couple billion to restart the 757 line you'd catch me there. Bombardier was sinking and needed a life line due to a variety od issues, the biggest being no orders from a real airline (sorry Republic).

A lot of us think GlasAir should still be around. You wanna talk about a quality team. Anyway, the market kills the good and the bad, and an international trade court has been agreed to by certain members to ensure "fairness" in the market, because the market is unfair enough as it is.

I cheered when Boeing beat Airbus up on the 380, while shorting their own case by turning Airbus game against them with the Japanese partnership.

Maybe the courts will go another way, but good Lord why is everyone in a bubble here about the Canadian subsides?
 
FloridaLarry said:
Steering Boeing in new directions is like threading a 747 through the eye of a needle. In retrospect, they blew it when they killed the 757 pre-maturely and made it impossible to backtrack on that decision. Then they blew the process of outsourcing on the 787, and the cost overruns left them gun-shy on the huge R&D expenditures to create a clean-sheet design. Which, in turn, left them sticking with the 737 for one design iteration too long for the long-term health of the company, despite a fattened order book.

Perhaps they should buy one of the new kids on the block: Bombardier for the C-100s-300s, or one of the Chinese or Russian companies for a true 737 replacement. But they probably won't.
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I figure they can at least see the market response to the C-Series and the MC-21 and since neither company is in a position to mass produce either Boeing will have some time to catch up with a new design if they choose to. They're going to lose a ton of market share if they wait until 2030 for their 737 and 757 replacement like they initially proposed back in 2014.
 
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ian said:
because thats his MO?
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Cptnchia said:
And United would be on the order books for the C-Series if Boeing hadn’t basically given them 737s for free to keep them from ordering Bombardier products. Talk about the heights of hypocracy on Boeing’s part.

Why do I get the feeling that had United ordered the C series, you’d be on the other side of this argument?
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ian said:
because thats his MO?
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Do you guys need help with reading comprehension? I clearly stated that "This is all about knocking out a competitor (yes, I realize Boeing is being VERY hypocritical here, but it is what it is)."

If my place bought them, I would have raised my eyebrows, and figured something like this was bound to happen.

This may actually be a really good opportunity for Pilots here in the United States. If we are smart, we would use some of Boeing's medicine against them next time they want to subsidize a deal to NAI, one of the ME3, or the next iteration of those. Hypocrisy goes both ways though. I see Deltoids belly aching here they got out lawyered by Boeing. Yes, I am sure Delta is going to do a work around, but Delta and their pilots have been pissed for years by the Import Export subsidized banking Boeing secured. But when Delta and their pilots reap those benefits of a state subsidized entity for themselves, they complain when Boeing actually wins.
 
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Boeing
Seggy said:
subsidize a deal
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this sure sounds like Boeing was subsidizing A DEAL!!

BENGALURU, Oct 9 — Boeing Co had pumped in more than £100 million (RM554.4 million) into Britain’s Monarch Airlines which collapsed last week, the Financial Times (FT) reported today. http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...lines-in-2016-report-says#RamK7WHtAwDLizo4.99

The collapse will be a headache for some of the world’s largest leasing companies, which financed its current fleet of 36 mainly Airbus (AIR.PA) jets, and for Boeing (BA.N), which has taken firm orders from Monarch for 32 of its 737 MAX aircraft.

In June Monarch announced plans to boost its order to 45 planes, but part of the deal never materialised on Boeing’s published order book.
Monarch Airlines was due to receive the first of a 45 Boeing 737 MAX 8 order placed at the Farnborough Air Show in 2014. The order was worth more than $3.2 billion at current list prices.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-holiday-plans-for-many-britons-idUSKCN1C70FQ
 
Seggy said:
Do you guys need help with reading comprehension? I clearly stated that "This is all about knocking out a competitor (yes, I realize Boeing is being VERY hypocritical here, but it is what it is)."

If my place bought them, I would have raised my eyebrows, and figured something like this was bound to happen.

This may actually be a really good opportunity for Pilots here in the United States. If we are smart, we would use some of Boeing's medicine against them next time they want to subsidize a deal to NAI, one of the ME3, or the next iteration of those. Hypocrisy goes both ways though. I see Deltoids belly aching here they got out lawyered by Boeing. Yes, I am sure Delta is going to do a work around, but Delta and their pilots have been pissed for years by the Import Export subsidized banking Boeing secured. But when Delta and their pilots reap those benefits of a state subsidized entity for themselves, they complain when Boeing actually wins.
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TIL pilots buy airplanes and control financing of said airplanes.
 
jtrain609 said:
Delta is trying to replace their mad dog fleet with c series jets. It's clear there's at least one legacy carrier in the states that wants the aircraft.
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Delta is buying them to replace RJs and a small amount of MD88. The company will be looking for a replacement aircraft for the MD88/MD90 very soon!;)
 
Cptnchia said:
Umm, according to “Top Men,” the CS300 IS the MD88 replacement.
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Yikes!!

I am going to the eternal city of Roma tomorrow night after I catch my low earth orbit uber up to NY!


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Aloha, but still...

Ciao
 
ian said:
TIL pilots buy airplanes and control financing of said airplanes.
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Some of us think we do.

Money is going to do what money is going to do and sadly, labor is along fo the ride and we get thrown some trinkets to play with in the back seat. We basically negotiate seat comfort, the variety of trinkets and even thought we can choose the music, rarely does the requested song come up! :)

Like a guy that wanted to declare war on JetBlue because of managements support of MEC's. It's not like the CEO came to the pilot group and asked "Can we do this? CAN we say this? Honestly, tell me your opinions!"
 
Derg said:
Some of us think we do.

Money is going to do what money is going to do and sadly, labor is along fo the ride and we get thrown some trinkets to play with in the back seat. We basically negotiate seat comfort, the variety of trinkets and even thought we can choose the music, rarely does the requested song come up! :)

Like a guy that wanted to declare war on JetBlue because of managements support of MEC's. It's not like the CEO came to the pilot group and asked "Can we do this? CAN we say this? Honestly, tell me your opinions!"
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Whaaat!? You mean PILOTS aren't the existencial center of the airline universe!!!???

Whatchu talkin' bout Dergless!?
 
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