horrific storms

[ppragman]

Per everything we are taught, when it comes to wx our radar is more accurate (and broader picture) than yours. Having never seen a aircrafts weather radar, I can't say if that's true or not

ATC radar typically sucks. Mark 1 eyeball is the best thunderstorm avoidance tool if it's available (difficult at night or IMC), after that onboard radar is good, after that I'd prefer to go the "long way around" using datalink, then finally, if I have no other tools...I'll take ATC advice about that sort of thing.

Your guys' radar is probably "more accurate" with regard to what it can depict, but it's super delayed, and we have a lot better resolution.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I think some of y'all are misunderstanding me, and I admit it is my fault due to the way I phrased my original post. I wasn't mad at him for not flying through the gap. I got mad at him for the attitude he took with me. I didn't go into a hold because I was mad at him. I'm going to try and find it on liveatc today. An @T/O w/FSII I know you think I hate pilots but I really don't. Some of my best friends are pilots. It just comes off that way cause either of jokes I make which are just jokes, or the only stories I have are of the tiny fraction that do something I don't like. No point in telling stories of all the ones who do everything fine, that's boring.

 

[NovemberEcho]

@NovemberEcho, I'm about to be JFK based. Feel free to hop on my jumpseat anytime and I can show you the difference between eyedar vs radar vs controller reports. It's crazy how the 3 do not line up at all during certain conditions.

I would love to take you up on that!

 

[learhawkerbe400]

I've noticed this on more than one post of yours, not only are you wrong and not only are you on the wrong forum for your complaint but I've noticed your maturity level is pretty low as well.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. You work for us and not vice versa. Sorry if that comes off harsh. But it's the truth.

Enjoy your fat paycheck and sleeping in your own bed every night. We'll enjoy making decisions that you won't get an explanation for.

He offers good perspective. Im sure the guy he was working got an attitude which is what upset him, big deal. If he told the story on scopecareers I'm sure it would have been received differently.

And it's not 2008 anymore. Anyone who's been at one of the big 6 a couple years could easily make as much controllers, with more time off.

 

[bucksmith]

I've noticed this on more than one post of yours, not only are you wrong and not only are you on the wrong forum for your complaint but I've noticed your maturity level is pretty low as well.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. You work for us and not vice versa. Sorry if that comes off harsh. But it's the truth.

Enjoy your fat paycheck and sleeping in your own bed every night. We'll enjoy making decisions that you won't get an explanation for.

I happen to, and I imagine many others, appreciate his input around here. are you really sorry it came off harsh?
If a controller comes on here with a rant and he turns out to be wrong, we are still better off hearing it, as it gives us his perspective of a given situation. Perception is often more powerful than truth. Just imagine if you could always know your wife's perception of you in the middle of a conversation or argument. (And vice Vera's of course)
Lighten up Francis.

 

[mikecweb]

I happen to, and I imagine many others, appreciate his input around here. are you really sorry it came off harsh?
If a controller comes on here with a rant and he turns out to be wrong, we are still better off hearing it, as it gives us his perspective of a given situation. Perception is often more powerful than truth. Just imagine if you could always know your wife's perception of you in the middle of a conversation or argument. (And vice Vera's of course)
Lighten up Francis.

 

[Hammertime]

Alright, quit jumping down this guy's throat. I completely agree with him. I get pretty PO'd too when some of you guys that only land in "terrifying EWR" once or twice a month get snippy with the NY TRACON guys. These guys are truly some of the best. And, yes. It is really annoying when you get all high on your PIC AUTHORITAH and refuse to go where everyone else is going, and force them to close the fix down. Then the whole rest of the EAST COAST suffers because YOU have an ego. Now, I'm holding/groundstopped/running out of gas in a departure line 40 deep. @NovemberEcho, do you guys have some sort of picture of how the airspace is structured? I'd love to see it. I was trying to explain to a guy the other day why we always go at 6K all the way to BREZY before turning east and climbing. Basically, it went like this: "I'm not sure, but EWR and TEB arrivals are under us, and I think JFK or LGA arrivals are over us. Anyway, we always have to do it..."

 

[NovemberEcho]

Alright, quit jumping down this guy's throat. I completely agree with him. I get pretty PO'd too when some of you guys that only land in "terrifying EWR" once or twice a month get snippy with the NY TRACON guys. These guys are truly some of the best. And, yes. It is really annoying when you get all high on your PIC AUTHORITAH and refuse to go where everyone else is going, and force them to close the fix down. Then the whole rest of the EAST COAST suffers because YOU have an ego. Now, I'm holding/groundstopped/running out of gas in a departure line 40 deep. @NovemberEcho, do you guys have some sort of picture of how the airspace is structured? I'd love to see it. I was trying to explain to a guy the other day why we always go at 6K all the way to BREZY before turning east and climbing. Basically, it went like this: "I'm not sure, but EWR and TEB arrivals are under us, and I think JFK or LGA arrivals are over us. Anyway, we always have to do it..."

I'll try and take some airspace pics. You're mostly right about BREZY but it's LGA departures above you climbing out of 7k

 

[cmac88]

ATC radar typically sucks. Mark 1 eyeball is the best thunderstorm avoidance tool if it's available (difficult at night or IMC), after that onboard radar is good, after that I'd prefer to go the "long way around" using datalink, then finally, if I have no other tools...I'll take ATC advice about that sort of thing.

Your guys' radar is probably "more accurate" with regard to what it can depict, but it's super delayed, and we have a lot better resolution.

Well that's mostly true however it greatly depends on the facility working you as well and the equipment they have. Most en route weather displays generally have about a 1 minute delay in processing but yes it "can" have up to a 5 minute delay. An in cockpit radar is also going to depend greatly on the user as well and I've been told by multiple pilot friends, as well as what I garnered from my limited flying knowledge and training (I flew before controlling) that most flight departments provide limited training on the actual use of the in flight radar. Thus why we still have guys who are the only one to deviate around something that both guys in front and behind go right through (generally not in low altitude situations).

In regards to the general discussion I can see how NE's post came off a little brash and rubbed some pilot guys the wrong way. If he had said something along the lines of he was trying to force a guy to go where he didn't want too then I'd agree, but it is frustrating. Both sides deal with situations that are going to frustrate but yes at the end of the day the guys in the pointy end are the ones whose physical butts are on the line. It doesn't mean we're not allowed to be frustrated. Now if one of us starts berating people on frequency especially in this situation... now we've got a big issue. From the sounds of it that's what really irked NE, is the pilot copped a 'tude when told he couldn't allow him to take a tour of queens. I mean let's be honest... anytime @NovemberEcho can shut center off he secretly enjoy's it :stir:.

As far as the "fat paycheck" comment... uh ya.... maybe some regional or management positions, but almost all of my pilot friends are in a lot cushier jobs making a lot more money or will be shortly then I ever will. As to your point about being home every night... well yeah I get that. That's why I am where I am as when I was ready to apply to Airlines they were all still bankrupt and I got the "I'm pregnant" call. I will say though, now that my son has hit school my schedule doesn't really work with his well so I probably see him A LOT less then your average pilot would. My wife is a FA for Delta so I get the ups and downs of both schedules. To each their own, however I probably wouldn't be accusing a guy working the boards at N90 of enjoying his "fat paycheck." I'm not sure he gets any time off to enjoy anything even if he was a millionaire.

In the end I just try to preach that we are here to provide a service, but some pilots forget that providing that service to everyone sometimes means not letting every pilot do exactly what they want. Can't we all just get along!?

 

[azmedic]

The advancement in ATC radar is going to be yuge once ATC is privatized,so these conversations will be moot soon anyways. :stir:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MikeD]

N90 is farm team compared to U90......












:stir:

 

[jtrain609]

Alright, quit jumping down this guy's throat. I completely agree with him. I get pretty PO'd too when some of you guys that only land in "terrifying EWR" once or twice a month get snippy with the NY TRACON guys. These guys are truly some of the best. And, yes. It is really annoying when you get all high on your PIC AUTHORITAH and refuse to go where everyone else is going, and force them to close the fix down. Then the whole rest of the EAST COAST suffers because YOU have an ego. Now, I'm holding/groundstopped/running out of gas in a departure line 40 deep. @NovemberEcho, do you guys have some sort of picture of how the airspace is structured? I'd love to see it. I was trying to explain to a guy the other day why we always go at 6K all the way to BREZY before turning east and climbing. Basically, it went like this: "I'm not sure, but EWR and TEB arrivals are under us, and I think JFK or LGA arrivals are over us. Anyway, we always have to do it..."

So, let me get this straight; do whatever controllers say and fly through thunderstorms if necessary so arrival and departure gates stay open because that's more convenient?

Go • yourself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Airways_Flight_242

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Of course I closed the door behind him. He wasn't willing to fly through, I wasn't taking the chance the next guy wouldn't either. We already had the EWR arrivals coming in way off the arrival route and cutting through 3 different sectors airspace to do it. This is NY, I don't have the airspace to maneuver all over the place.

You got unlucky. Had it been a SWA driver or a dawg, he'da thread that needle hole no problem.

Then you got unlucky again...

I get what you are saying. You got so much pushback 'cause you came on a bit strong in your first post which made it seem you were overriding the pilot's judgement of the situation. Your subsequent posts easily made your point clear, but you had already engendered an emotional response that got in the way of reason. This thread could be a good lesson in CRM. Once one says something that pisses someone off - even unintentionally - it's often hard to get one's point across with even the most impeccable logic.

 

[NovemberEcho]

You got unlucky. Had it been a SWA driver or a dawg, he'da thread that needle hole no problem.

Man when I was in Florida there was a Flight Express pilot that I'm pretty sure was suicidal. I saw that guy fly through level 5 stuff without a whimper saying he had the airport in sight 20 miles away. Vector for sequence? Cancel IFR. 1500' overcast? Airport in sight 50 miles out from 5000'.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Alright, quit jumping down this guy's throat. I completely agree with him. I get pretty PO'd too when some of you guys that only land in "terrifying EWR" once or twice a month get snippy with the NY TRACON guys. These guys are truly some of the best. And, yes. It is really annoying when you get all high on your PIC AUTHORITAH and refuse to go where everyone else is going, and force them to close the fix down. Then the whole rest of the EAST COAST suffers because YOU have an ego. Now, I'm holding/groundstopped/running out of gas in a departure line 40 deep. @NovemberEcho, do you guys have some sort of picture of how the airspace is structured? I'd love to see it. I was trying to explain to a guy the other day why we always go at 6K all the way to BREZY before turning east and climbing. Basically, it went like this: "I'm not sure, but EWR and TEB arrivals are under us, and I think JFK or LGA arrivals are over us. Anyway, we always have to do it..."

Your first sentence makes sense, but I'm afraid for the wrong reasons. The rest of your post deserves the derision misdirected at the OP. If a qualified, experienced pilot makes a Wx judgement, no one at ATC should question it in real time.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Man when I was in Florida there was a Flight Express pilot that I'm pretty sure was suicidal. I saw that guy fly through level 5 stuff without a whimper saying he had the airport in sight 20 miles away. Vector for sequence? Cancel IFR. 1500' overcast? Airport in sight 50 miles out from 5000'.

Horses smell the barn. Dawgs smell the beer.

 

[etflies]

Alright, quit jumping down this guy's throat. I completely agree with him. I get pretty PO'd too when some of you guys that only land in "terrifying EWR" once or twice a month get snippy with the NY TRACON guys. These guys are truly some of the best. And, yes. It is really annoying when you get all high on your PIC AUTHORITAH and refuse to go where everyone else is going, and force them to close the fix down. Then the whole rest of the EAST COAST suffers because YOU have an ego. Now, I'm holding/groundstopped/running out of gas in a departure line 40 deep. @NovemberEcho, do you guys have some sort of picture of how the airspace is structured? I'd love to see it. I was trying to explain to a guy the other day why we always go at 6K all the way to BREZY before turning east and climbing. Basically, it went like this: "I'm not sure, but EWR and TEB arrivals are under us, and I think JFK or LGA arrivals are over us. Anyway, we always have to do it..."

I'm not sure if you are a pilot or controller based on your post here, but either way I'm surprised to have to say this....just because everyone else is jumping off the bridge, doesn't mean I'm gonna do it too.

"Everyone ahead of you has gone through the gap and reported smooth" is a piece of information used to help make a decision. What we see out the window, and on the radar are two other important pieces that controllers don't see. If someone honestly thinks it's an ego based decision, or that we would do it just to inconvenience ATC or other pilots, perhaps said pilot isn't the one with the ego problem. Our job as pilots isn't to worry about the whole east coast. It's to worry about keeping our crew, passengers and aircraft safe and legal. Don't forget that more often than not, we (pilots) are on the receiving end of such an inconvenience rather than being the ones to cause it in the first place.

While our "PIC AUTHORITAH" might annoy some, it is important in allowing us to do what we feel is safest based on what we see out the window and on our radar. If a controller has an issue with the decision, I'm happy to call and explain the decision once we're safely on the ground.

One more thing, I would genuinely enjoy having more controllers go for rides with us. In my years of airline flying I've had precisely 1 in the jumpseat. Of my many controller friends, 0 have even tried yet almost every pilot I know has visited a tower/Tracon facility at least once. Perhaps more "seeing the other side" would go a long way here.

 

[N519AT]

you upgrayed?

I'd take @NovemberEcho in the Dash before we park them, but the honeywell/Fisher Price My First Radar doesn't inspire much confidence

I thought the Dash radar wasn't too bad once you learned to use it. The 145 radar left a lot more to be desired IMO.

In the Dash I would put the rings on the 80 mile scale (? embarassed I can't remember the ranges it had), paint ground just outside of 40 and then scale down to 40. Should be good to paint anything at that point. And the biggest lesson I learned: don't be afraid to use the gain!!! The automatic/preset gain seemed to vary all over the place across the fleet.

 

[matthew]

In the end I just try to preach that we are here to provide a service, but some pilots forget that providing that service to everyone sometimes means not letting every pilot do exactly what they want.

And therein lies the reason why you just don't get it. We aren't doing what we want, we're doing what we need. This idea that we think it's just us in a sector is ridiculous. Most of us have been doing this long enough to know we can't deviate perpendicular to our filed route forever. Nothing NovemberEcho said is his OP is in any way acceptable or conducive to the safe transportation of passengers. I wish he had the collective experience pilots have of hearing "moderate to extreme precip 12 o'clock" and us looking at each other thinking "jeez turn the gain down on that scope" or vice versa. Let's see if years of comparing that vs actual experience will maintain your confidence in a controllers ability to provide an accurate picture of the weather in front of you.

 

[Hammertime]

I'm not sure if you are a pilot or controller based on your post here, but either way I'm surprised to have to say this....just because everyone else is jumping off the bridge, doesn't mean I'm gonna do it too.

"Everyone ahead of you has gone through the gap and reported smooth" is a piece of information used to help make a decision. What we see out the window, and on the radar are two other important pieces that controllers don't see. If someone honestly thinks it's an ego based decision, or that we would do it just to inconvenience ATC or other pilots, perhaps said pilot isn't the one with the ego problem. Our job as pilots isn't to worry about the whole east coast. It's to worry about keeping our crew, passengers and aircraft safe and legal. Don't forget that more often than not, we (pilots) are on the receiving end of such an inconvenience rather than being the ones to cause it in the first place.

While our "PIC AUTHORITAH" might annoy some, it is important in allowing us to do what we feel is safest based on what we see out the window and on our radar. If a controller has an issue with the decision, I'm happy to call and explain the decision once we're safely on the ground.

One more thing, I would genuinely enjoy having more controllers go for rides with us. In my years of airline flying I've had precisely 1 in the jumpseat. Of my many controller friends, 0 have even tried yet almost every pilot I know has visited a tower/Tracon facility at least once. Perhaps more "seeing the other side" would go a long way here.

I thought NovemberEcho and plenty of others had made it abundantly clear that you don't fly into something you don't like. That's not a question here, and shouldn't ever be. I fly in NY airspace multiple times daily. I fly entire legs under NY TRACON control (EWR-BDL, EWR-AVP). In seven years of doing that, I've had maybe two instances where those guys wanted to put me somewhere where I didn't want to be. Both times, we worked as a team to find a better route. I get frustrated with guys who don't see the big picture, want to go somewhere they can't, and then get mouthy on frequency about it. I think someone earlier mentioned that with TCAS we'd be fine. Wow. Sure, you may not have a mid air, but give an entire congo line an RA, and see how that works. Or, worse yet, blunder into a stack up over a hold. Often, when there's weather, these guys have a very narrow window to work your flight in. They take what you say seriously. If you say, "hey, that routing is not going to work" they are going to close that route down for the numerous aircraft in line behind you. If that's the last route into the airspace, guess what, the airspace is closed. Then comes the groundstop, and horrendous EDCTs. Now, if the weather has moved across the fix, so be it. But, if the controller is telling you that the routing is working, it might be worth a closer look. Basically, I'm saying that there's no room in the cockpit, or on frequency for an ego. Yes, NovemberEcho could have worded his IP a little better, but DON'T develop an ego around the fact that you are in charge of the airplane.