Spirit Contract Now
- Thread starter Cruise
- Start date
BigZ
Well-Known Member
From purely non-airline outside I wouldn't bet on the pilot group on this. I have been following for a while, looks like was a waiting game to see who looses the nerve first and starts doing things that will be used against them
The outcome remains to be seen, naturally, and there will be a resolution of some sort eventually, but it's not looking a) pretty, b) like the pilot group is winning
Best course of action - claim the website was set up by the Russians
The outcome remains to be seen, naturally, and there will be a resolution of some sort eventually, but it's not looking a) pretty, b) like the pilot group is winning
Best course of action - claim the website was set up by the Russians
z987k
Well-Known Member
Website?
pete2800
'Member?
Wrong.
Compared their peers at Allegiant, they're underpaid. Frontier's contract is irrelevant due to bankruptcy and ongoing negotiations. When comparing "industry standard" numbers, you have to look at where each company is in their contract cycle. I've had to explain this to several people regarding Alaska's current rates. Any contract past it's amendable date should be discarded for comparison, as should any contract born from bankruptcy.
What is "industry standard" for 737/A320 flying for an airline that Alaska competes with?
Delta: Valid contract
United: Valid contract
American: Valid contract
Southwest: Valid contract
Hawaiian: Valid contract, but not currently operating similar aircraft type
JetBlue: Irrelevant due to ongoing negotiations and lack of existing ALPA contract
Virgin: Irrelevant due to acquisition, ongoing negotiations, and lack of existing ALPA contract
Frontier: Irrelevant due to ongoing negotiations and bankruptcy contract
Spirit: Irrelevant due to ongoing negotiations
Sun Country: Irrelevant due to non-competing business model, and size of operation
Allegiant: Irrelevant due to non-competing business model
Please don't ever volunteer for any pilot union, or try to negotiate anything. Or vote on a contract, for that matter.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
You could have simply stated:
Numbers we like : Relevant
Numbers we don't like : Irrelevant
pete2800
'Member?
Uh, no.
Why should a contract that was negotiated 6-8 years ago, and only intended to last 4-5 years be included for comparison for rates starting now and moving into the future? Similarly, why should pay rates that were a product of a financially unviable company be applied to a place that is the most profitable in the industry? And why would pre-contract rates at a newly-unionized company that is still in negotiations for their first contract be applied to a future contract at a separate company? I mean, heck, if we're going to use non-current contracts as a metric, lets go ahead and throw in DAL and UAL contracts from around the year 2000. Why not?
My reasons for excluding certain contracts are completely valid. It's the same reason that a non-bankrupt company that was making money in 2005 (Alaska) should not have been awarded a contract similar to airlines that had just received bankruptcy contracts. (Kasher)
Comparing every available number is more than disingenuous, it's simply bastardizing your actual statistical comparison to be something that is significantly less relevant than it should be.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
What incentive do they have? What incentive does Frontier have to give their pilots a new contract? Wouldn't it be easier to just stall and then once a merger is announced, work on one JCBA. Could that be their end game?
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Yeah from a business standpoint hold off as long as possible. I've heard the number $7 mil a month in savings by the company not getting a JCBA for us.
pete2800
'Member?
Exactly. This is the part of the RLA that sucks. Combined with general governmental unwillingness to allow strikes, this is why you can get parked in negotiations for 6 years like Republic did. Its a part of the system that is a failure.
Yeah. Happy employees are productive employees, though. So I'm left wondering what the incalculable cost of lost morale and loyalty will be.
roundout
VNAV monitor
Frontier can haz too?
roundout
VNAV monitor
Someone else working on a management position?
roundout
VNAV monitor
That's my theory. There's no incentive for them to negotiate quickly or in good faith. They will take it as far as they can before giving us anything. If they can push it off long enough to become someone else's problem, that's a win for them.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Spirit Air Sues Its Pilot Union After Canceling Hundreds of Recent Flights
Brian Sumers, Skift
- May 08, 2017 9:46 pm
Over the weekend, Spirit Airlines passengers took to social media to complain about delayed and canceled flights, with some saying they could not fly from busy airports.
The airline downplayed the issue, but on Monday, it took action. Spirit sued its pilots union in federal court for the Southern District of Florida, accusing pilots of “an unlawful job action,” designed to hurt the airline’s operations. Spirit pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, and the airline are at odds over a new collective bargaining agreement.
In some cases, the airline said in its complaint, pilots are even turning down a chance to make 200 percent of their pay for last-minute assignments. Usually, the airline said, it has no trouble finding pilots for those flights. Spirit also said union members have “engaged in a campaign to threaten and intimidate other pilots” who accept those and other last-minute assignments.
“We are disappointed that [the union] has decided to engage in this unlawful slowdown,” Spirit spokesman Paul Berry said in an email. “This has led to canceled flights and prevented our customers from taking their planned travel, all for the sole purpose of influencing current labor negotiations.”
This sort of back-and-forth is not unusual in the airline industry. Pilots have considerable latitude in how and when they fly, and during contentious labor negotiations, they may try to do the bare minimum. But that is generally a violation of the Railway Labor Act, which requires pilots to roughly work as they did before negotiations.
In its complaint, Spirit said the action had gone on for seven days, causing the airline to cancel roughly 300 flights, including 81 on Sunday because of a lack of pilots. The airline said the action had cost it roughly $8.5 million in lost revenue, and said problems have been concentrated in Chicago, Fort Lauderdale, Las Vegas and Detroit.
In these cases, airlines often prevail. In 2011, a federal judge in North Carolina ordered US Airways pilots to stop sabotaging the carrier’s operations, after more flights than usual were delayed because of pilot decisions.
Spirit’s union expected this suit. On May 5, it put out a memo to pilots telling them the airline had canceled more flights than usual during the week. It told pilots it knew the company was annoyed by the operational miscues, and was threatening to take legal action. It reminded many pilots that various airlines had been successful in court against pilot unions, over time.
The [union leadership] wants no misunderstanding on this matter—we mean what we say and are not sending any “coded” or hidden messages,” the memo said. “To be clear: if Spirit’s operations continue to deteriorate and are not restored quickly we will be subject to litigation, which will undermine our bargaining efforts and delay our timeline.”
https://3rxg9qea18zhtl6s2u8jammft-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Spirit.pdf
Numerous quotes of different Spirit APC posts in the injunction.
Ouch. Hopefully no one gets subpoenaed.
Brian Sumers, Skift
- May 08, 2017 9:46 pm
Over the weekend, Spirit Airlines passengers took to social media to complain about delayed and canceled flights, with some saying they could not fly from busy airports.
The airline downplayed the issue, but on Monday, it took action. Spirit sued its pilots union in federal court for the Southern District of Florida, accusing pilots of “an unlawful job action,” designed to hurt the airline’s operations. Spirit pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, and the airline are at odds over a new collective bargaining agreement.
In some cases, the airline said in its complaint, pilots are even turning down a chance to make 200 percent of their pay for last-minute assignments. Usually, the airline said, it has no trouble finding pilots for those flights. Spirit also said union members have “engaged in a campaign to threaten and intimidate other pilots” who accept those and other last-minute assignments.
“We are disappointed that [the union] has decided to engage in this unlawful slowdown,” Spirit spokesman Paul Berry said in an email. “This has led to canceled flights and prevented our customers from taking their planned travel, all for the sole purpose of influencing current labor negotiations.”
This sort of back-and-forth is not unusual in the airline industry. Pilots have considerable latitude in how and when they fly, and during contentious labor negotiations, they may try to do the bare minimum. But that is generally a violation of the Railway Labor Act, which requires pilots to roughly work as they did before negotiations.
In its complaint, Spirit said the action had gone on for seven days, causing the airline to cancel roughly 300 flights, including 81 on Sunday because of a lack of pilots. The airline said the action had cost it roughly $8.5 million in lost revenue, and said problems have been concentrated in Chicago, Fort Lauderdale, Las Vegas and Detroit.
In these cases, airlines often prevail. In 2011, a federal judge in North Carolina ordered US Airways pilots to stop sabotaging the carrier’s operations, after more flights than usual were delayed because of pilot decisions.
Spirit’s union expected this suit. On May 5, it put out a memo to pilots telling them the airline had canceled more flights than usual during the week. It told pilots it knew the company was annoyed by the operational miscues, and was threatening to take legal action. It reminded many pilots that various airlines had been successful in court against pilot unions, over time.
The [union leadership] wants no misunderstanding on this matter—we mean what we say and are not sending any “coded” or hidden messages,” the memo said. “To be clear: if Spirit’s operations continue to deteriorate and are not restored quickly we will be subject to litigation, which will undermine our bargaining efforts and delay our timeline.”
https://3rxg9qea18zhtl6s2u8jammft-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Spirit.pdf
Numerous quotes of different Spirit APC posts in the injunction.
Ouch. Hopefully no one gets subpoenaed.
Last edited:
learhawkerbe400
Well-Known Member
God I love that meme lol. But yea no news of any cancellations or anything for this summer. I'd say the gradual switch to PBS actually has AA slightly over-manned.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
God I love that meme lol. But yea no news of any cancellations or anything for this summer. I'd say the gradual switch to PBS actually has AA slightly over-manned.
Is everyone complaining about AOS yet?
NickH
Uber Driver
Quelle Surprise...
L-16B
Well-Known Member
I like it better than pinnacle PBS whatever that was. I like being able to see how many pairings you've bid in each layer. They said bid your seniority plus 10% and you should be gravy.
CirrusMonkey
No Real Usefulness
I am actually surprised that the company sued. The COO is on record saying that these cancelations were weather related. He's going to have more splaining to do than us.
