Spirit Contract Now

[Cruise]

I never said there was. I was simply correcting a factually incorrect statement. They are, in fact, being paid industry standard; their industry being the LCC/ULCC airline market.

Wow! Thanks for the insight. You have a direct line to airline management with that attitude. The Spirit CEO, Bumbling Bob Fornaro, made well in excess of $7M last year. Is that also inline with the LCC/ ULCC business model? Pay the executives on par with all legacy carriers; but keep the serfs in servitude. Got it! I think you could be our next Director of Operations.

Is this also your motto:

 

[Flying Saluki]

What about Allegiant? Are they not a ULCC as well?

I didn't mention them by name, but I looked at them. They are on the high side of the industry average, roughly 10% higher.

 

[jtrain609]

I didn't mention them by name, but I looked at them. They are on the high side of the industry average, roughly 10% higher.

This is known as pattern bargaining.

 

[Flying Saluki]

So a Spirit/Frontier/Virgin pilot should make less than a Delta/United/AA pilot because the tickets are cheaper? That dog don't hunt.

Again, all I said is that Spirit's compensation is in line with their competitors in the LCC/ULCC airline market. That's all I said. I ventured no opinion nor made any value judgement on the subject.

But since you asked; American, Delta, et al, put 150 people on an airplane and charge $249. Spirit puts 180 on an airplane, but only charges $99. You do the math and tell me what you think.

 

[Nark]

Again, all I said is that Spirit's compensation is in line with their competitors in the LCC/ULCC airline market. That's all I said. I ventured no opinion nor made any value judgement on the subject.

But since you asked; American, Delta, et al, put 150 people on an airplane and charge $249. Spirit puts 180 on an airplane, but only charges $99. You do the math and tell me what you think.

Sure: Spirit makes more money.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

What's management's motivation? Trips are picked up, some guys bending over left and right for JAs, MUPs, and high fives with scheduling. Until some of them get real unity, instead of writing names of pilots picking up open time on APC, Management will see that kind of division and use that to their advantage.


And I'll get flak for saying it but I don't see how it's realistic to expect legacy airline pay at a LCC/national airline, asides from pilot CEOs insistence that they are very profitable and fly the same plane argument. There is historical precedence and there has always been a distinction among legacy airline pay and LCC/National airline pay. Allegiants new contract came up but was not at legacy pay, still, for being Allegiant it seems impressive enough.

Good luck to you guys and I do hope you get a contract soon. Ours is in mediation now for 2 months or so and if nothing, we head to arbitration with latest dates in October. Our should be out by then, but if it comes out via arbitration we don't get a vote on it. The only way now we get a ratifyable contract (one we can vote yes/no) is if we get it in mediation. If so, that could be out sooner.

Hopefully 2017 is the year of the contracts for Alaska, Spirit, and JetBlue.

 

[CirrusMonkey]

Wait, Spirit is in a different industry than other Airbus operators?? I've been disgruntled for nothing then...

 

[Inverted]

I offered no opinion on the subject. I merely stated that they are (more or less) paid the same as their peers. I define their peers as the companies that operate a similar business model to Spirit.

You are missing the mark and the point. Compare domestic ticket prices on Virgin (now AK) for similar routes and they are really not far off of mainline. Sun Country isn't really swirling the bottom of the ULCC barrel either. I would rope Frontier/Spirit/Allegiant together. That is completely irrelevant to how much they are paid for what they do. ULCC, LCC, or not, they should be paid market rate for flying the A320. The company is extremely profitable, and their pilots should be paid as such.

 

[Skåning]

Do LCCs pay less for tires and spare parts? Do they pay less to the OEM for new planes?
Why is pilot labor any different, I would argue that it's not. You don't want the plane to crash so you hire the best people that you can, thus attracting talent with compensation. A Delta Airbus pilot has the exact same job tasks as a Spirit Airbus pilot, they should compensate the same.

 

[etflies]

Again, all I said is that Spirit's compensation is in line with their competitors in the LCC/ULCC airline market. That's all I said. I ventured no opinion nor made any value judgement on the subject.

But since you asked; American, Delta, et al, put 150 people on an airplane and charge $249. Spirit puts 180 on an airplane, but only charges $99. You do the math and tell me what you think.

Waaaaay too much of a generalization to support any kind of argument that ULCC pilots should be paid less as a result of the business model. Not to mention that ignores the fees charged for well, everything excluding seatbelts, bathrooms & o2 which is where most of the profit comes from.

Spirit & Frontier have 2 of the highest profit margins in the industry. There is no reason those pilots should be paid less than any other Airbus operator in the U.S.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

There are three distinct airline categories for pilot careers in terms of pay and QOL: regionals, LCC/Nationals, and legacies.

I don't hear anyone saying regional pilots flying CRJ7/9 and Emb 170/175s should get what 737-200 or DC9 pilots used to get, they fly the same passengers on the same routes with the newer replacement jets (RJs). Just because one flies a similar plane or similar passenger seating or make great profits does not mean industry leading pay or even industry average pay.

 

[z987k]

There are three distinct airline categories for pilot careers in terms of pay and QOL: regionals, LCC/Nationals, and legacies.

I don't hear anyone saying regional pilots flying CRJ7/9 and Emb 170/175s should get what 737-200 or DC9 pilots used to get, they fly the same passengers on the same routes with the newer replacement jets (RJs). Just because one flies a similar plane or similar passenger seating or make great profits does not mean industry leading pay or even industry average pay.

Uh, no a CR9/175 pilot should absolutely get paid what a DC9 driver did.

 

[Dphoenix]

Yeah, actually we all should be getting legacy pay and the regionals shouldn't exist. LCC's I have no problem with, but this A scale B scale thing is total garbage.
Spirit's profit margin is far, far larger than Delta's... Yeah, that'll go down a little bit if they have to pay the pilots more, but the pilots are hardly a large expense.
Facts... Spirit has 1564 pilots. $40,000 a year raise or work rule improvement etc for all of them would be $62.5 million.
Spirit Airlines 2015 Profit: $317 mil. ($202,685 in profit, per pilot.)
Obviously, the shareholders and executives want to keep every grubby last dollar, but they absolutely could support higher pay pretty easily and the dent in their EPS would be reasonable and should already be expected and priced in by wall street analysts who aren't dumb and know pilots can't be underpaid forever and eventually labor cost has to rise.

 

[FlySooner9]

Spirits first year pay is below the majority of regionals.

 

[skypilot6]

Spirits first year pay is below the majority of regionals.

Which is even less during training, $1000/mo training pay plus $750/mo per diem during training.

 

[derg]

Again, all I said is that Spirit's compensation is in line with their competitors in the LCC/ULCC airline market. That's all I said. I ventured no opinion nor made any value judgement on the subject.

But since you asked; American, Delta, et al, put 150 people on an airplane and charge $249. Spirit puts 180 on an airplane, but only charges $99. You do the math and tell me what you think.

With all due respect, you can't simply make up numbers, call it math, and then have a rational debate on the issue. I mean, you can, but I don't wanna.

Todays magic word is "revenue".

 

[mikecweb]

With all due respect, you can't simply make up numbers, call it math, and then have a rational debate on the issue. I mean, you can, but I don't wanna.

Todays magic word is "revenue".

Finish him!

 

[JDean3204]

Yeah, actually we all should be getting legacy pay and the regionals shouldn't exist. LCC's I have no problem with, but this A scale B scale thing is total garbage.
Spirit's profit margin is far, far larger than Delta's... Yeah, that'll go down a little bit if they have to pay the pilots more, but the pilots are hardly a large expense.
Facts... Spirit has 1564 pilots. $40,000 a year raise or work rule improvement etc for all of them would be $62.5 million.
Spirit Airlines 2015 Profit: $317 mil. ($202,685 in profit, per pilot.)
Obviously, the shareholders and executives want to keep every grubby last dollar, but they absolutely could support higher pay pretty easily and the dent in their EPS would be reasonable and should already be expected and priced in by wall street analysts who aren't dumb and know pilots can't be underpaid forever and eventually labor cost has to rise.

^^ This! Just like how AS announced a bunch of new flying out of DAL which I'm sure is to keep VA customers happy. Meanwhile it will be OO/QX providing that air service at a discounted rate. Makes me vomit in my mouth a bit.

 

[z987k]

^^ This! Just like how AS announced a bunch of new flying out of DAL which I'm sure is to keep VA customers happy. Meanwhile it will be OO/QX providing that air service at a discounted rate. Makes me vomit in my mouth a bit.

I'm sure the Virgin customers will be thrilled with the RJ service.

 

[wheelsup]

Yeah, actually we all should be getting legacy pay and the regionals shouldn't exist. LCC's I have no problem with, but this A scale B scale thing is total garbage.
Spirit's profit margin is far, far larger than Delta's... Yeah, that'll go down a little bit if they have to pay the pilots more, but the pilots are hardly a large expense.
Facts... Spirit has 1564 pilots. $40,000 a year raise or work rule improvement etc for all of them would be $62.5 million.
Spirit Airlines 2015 Profit: $317 mil. ($202,685 in profit, per pilot.)
Obviously, the shareholders and executives want to keep every grubby last dollar, but they absolutely could support higher pay pretty easily and the dent in their EPS would be reasonable and should already be expected and priced in by wall street analysts who aren't dumb and know pilots can't be underpaid forever and eventually labor cost has to rise.

Not to be all management-ish but if you were running Spirit, and there was a line out the door for qualified applicants, and turnover was low, and the metal was still moving, why would you raise pay?

A 20% hit in EPS long term is pretty huge.