PA 31-350 Navajo Chieftain training material

[Tyler Pinkerton]

Not meaning to sound snarky, but I wouldn't worry about assimilating the information. There's really not that much to assimilate, unless, perhaps, you have very limited light twin time. The most important benefit of the 350? You'll have a lot less heartburn. Mnemonic: PA 300 has 300hp engines. PA350 has 350hp engines. The 350 even has counter-rotating props, so you've got that going for you, which is nice... especially if you ever actually puke an engine on takeoff. Then again, if you add all the extra seats, the 350 is probably equally pathetic when heavy and hot. Memory Item: Don't puke an engine in a Navajo (unless you are well away from the ground and have lots of airspeed).
Killer gotchas: Engine Cowling Screws (Ensure secured), Nose Bag Door (Ensure closed. Also, don't ever leave open unattended), Performance Charts (Don't believe them and/or factor by 2x or .5x, accordingly), Heater (Be wary), Gear (Clean often lest it get stuck down), MaxWgt Changes/VG add-ons (load only to original book MTOW... and factor by .5x).

To add, I'm not sure if they all have it or if it was just an option or after market stc, but the previous employer's short body panther had the easily removable pin for the front landing gear scissor link so that it could be safely towed by the idiots employed by Atlantic...

If you have a similar pin, make sure it's in before you start up.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I've got 500 hours or so in a 350 and agree with very little of this.

I started out serious and waxed hyperbolic? I really wasn't meaning to be hating the 350. I stand by the 300 statements, though it could easily be possible I've just flown ill-maintained, crappy airplanes of an acceptable type. Crappy typifies most of the airplanes I've flown with some notable exceptions.

 

[Roger Roger]

I started out serious and waxed hyperbolic? I really wasn't meaning to be hating the 350. I stand by the 300 statements, though it could easily be possible I've just flown ill-maintained, crappy airplanes of an acceptable type. Crappy typifies most of the airplanes I've flown with some notable exceptions.

I don't know performance wise but as far as systems go there is a world of difference between an early model -300 and an 80s Chieftain. They're all still somewhat maintenance hogs but that goes with being complex, turbo, twin engine, and 30+ years old. Even that isn't really a fair comparison as they're often doing the same mission as 207s and Vans both of which have way less moving parts. Compared to say a Twin Cessna doing the same mission...oh wait, no one still does that with Twin Cessnas because it didn't work. It will haul whatever you can cram into it (though there's definitely been times that I'm glad I couldn't cram any more in). As with most piston twins losing an engine between breaking ground and 1000' AGL could be anywhere between hair-raising and kiss-your-ass-goodbye depending on load, weather, and terrain. It's a busy little airplane but handles beautifully.

 

[Capt. Chaos]

To add, I'm not sure if they all have it or if it was just an option or after market stc, but the previous employer's short body panther had the easily removable pin for the front landing gear scissor link so that it could be safely towed by the idiots employed by Atlantic...

If you have a similar pin, make sure it's in before you start up.

Its a Aero Twin STC for the scissor link mod.

 

[Roger Roger]

Its a Aero Twin STC for the scissor link mod.

maybe Aero Twin sold it for a while, but ASEI owns it now.

 

[hook_dupin]

We had a panther at my last gig and it was 10 kts slower than the rest of the chieftains... lol

It has real Panther in it, that's how you know it's good.

 

[Tyler Pinkerton]

It has real Panther in it, that's how you know it's good.

I bet if it had Tiger blood added it would be faster!

 

[Deleted member 27505]

It's a busy little airplane but handles beautifully.

I won't comment on the 350, but to me the 300 handles like a pickup truck (at least compared to the other stuff I fly). That's not necessarily a bad thing. I, myself, often enjoy driving a pickup truck, and in the interest of full disclosure, the pickups I'm talking about are farm trucks, not the tricked-out, mall-hopping variety. It's just a thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[ppragman]

I won't comment on the 350, but to me the 300 handles like a pickup truck (at least compared to the other stuff I fly). That's not necessarily a bad thing. I, myself, often enjoy driving a pickup truck, and in the interest of full disclosure, the pickups I'm talking about are farm trucks, not the tricked-out, mall-hopping variety. It's just a thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.[/QUOTE

Compared to a C90B or a Caravan, the Navajo handles amazingly. The PC-12/47 is much lighter on the controls than the Navajo however.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I'm going to disagree with both the Van and C90 comparison. I've never flown a -47, but I've been told it's much lighter on the controls than the older models. I liked both the -41 and the -45, but they were both heavy in roll. I probably just don't like the 300 because I can get a smooth flare and landing out of it only about 2 times out of 10 attempts. It's likely just my inability to adapt.

 

[A150K]

Not meaning to sound snarky, but I wouldn't worry about assimilating the information. There's really not that much to assimilate, unless, perhaps, you have very limited light twin time. The most important benefit of the 350? You'll have a lot less heartburn. Mnemonic: PA 300 has 300hp engines. PA350 has 350hp engines. The 350 even has counter-rotating props, so you've got that going for you, which is nice... especially if you ever actually puke an engine on takeoff. Then again, if you add all the extra seats, the 350 is probably equally pathetic when heavy and hot. Memory Item: Don't puke an engine in a Navajo (unless you are well away from the ground and have lots of airspeed).
Killer gotchas: Engine Cowling Screws (Ensure secured), Nose Bag Door (Ensure closed. Also, don't ever leave open unattended), Performance Charts (Don't believe them and/or factor by 2x or .5x, accordingly), Heater (Be wary), Gear (Clean often lest it get stuck down), MaxWgt Changes/VG add-ons (load only to original book MTOW... and factor by .5x).

I've lost an engine in a -350 a few thousand feet up on climbout. I can attest to it being less of a big deal than in a straight Navajo (which I have no experience in..Just going from what I've heard from others)-especially given that it wasn't at a critical phase and I was light when it happended. As for the gotchas....I can attest to all of those, but if you're going to check nothing else in a Chieftain, make triple sure that the nose baggage door is secured and be tactile about it when checking it. You DO NOT want that thing coming open on you.

 

[A150K]

I'm going to disagree with both the Van and C90 comparison. I've never flown a -47, but I've been told it's much lighter on the controls than the older models. I liked both the -41 and the -45, but they were both heavy in roll. I probably just don't like the 300 because I can get a smooth flare and landing out of it only about 2 times out of 10 attempts. It's likely just my inability to adapt.

I fly the C90 at my current shop and much prefer the way it handles to the -350...But I was also flying old beat to crap freight -350's that were probably crashed a few times over the years, so maybe not the best comparison

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I've lost an engine in a -350 a few thousand feet up on climbout. I can attest to it being less of a big deal than in a straight Navajo (which I have no experience in..Just going from what I've heard from others)-especially given that it wasn't at a critical phase and I was light when it happended. As for the gotchas....I can attest to all of those, but if you're going to check nothing else in a Chieftain, make triple sure that the nose baggage door is secured and be tactile about it when checking it. You DO NOT want that thing coming open on you.

Thank Spaghetti Monster, I've never lost an engine on departure in a Navajo. What I have done in several Navajos is taken off heavy on a hot-ish day and gotten only ~250fpm climb on BOTH engines. Like I said, too much heartburn.

 

[A150K]

Thank Spaghetti Monster, I've never lost an engine on departure in a Navajo. What I have done in several Navajos is taken off heavy on a hot-ish day and gotten only ~250fpm climb on BOTH engines. Like I said, too much heartburn.

That's awful...I flew the Chieftain out of some hot and high airports in NM and AZ and could almost always count on 700-1000 FPM or so....even when pretty heavy. I also flew her out of a >3000 foot strip up in OR and she did alright.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

That's awful...I flew the Chieftain out of some hot and high airports in NM and AZ and could almost always count on 700-1000 FPM or so....even when pretty heavy. I also flew her out of a >3000 foot strip up in OR and she did alright.

That's the Chieftain. It's a substantially better aircraft than the 300. I can't speak for the fleet, but the ones I've flown make me wonder how the 300 got certified. And like I said earlier, I may simply have suffered from a statistically anomalous string of bad airplanes.

 

[mshunter]

That's awful...I flew the Chieftain out of some hot and high airports in NM and AZ and could almost always count on 700-1000 FPM or so....even when pretty heavy. I also flew her out of a >3000 foot strip up in OR and she did alright.

I used to do Canyon runs from the LA basin to GCN in a Panther. It did great leaving there in the summer full of people, and enough gas to get home which brought it close to max. I also had the joy of flying it into Oceanside, a lot. IIRC, that was 3200', with minor terrain. It handled it really well. I really miss that thing. If I ever found someone who needed help flying one, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Roger Roger]

I won't comment on the 350, but to me the 300 handles like a pickup truck (at least compared to the other stuff I fly). That's not necessarily a bad thing. I, myself, often enjoy driving a pickup truck, and in the interest of full disclosure, the pickups I'm talking about are farm trucks, not the tricked-out, mall-hopping variety. It's just a thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Everything is relative. Compared to a Sled (which is just a frankenplane and flies like it) or a Van (light in pitch but ponderous in roll and a boot full of adverse yaw) the Big Chief handles like a little sports car. She's nimble enough but also a rock solid instrument platform. Flap and gear speeds on the late models are perfectly harmonized with what you need for flying an instrument approach.

 

[Roger Roger]

I've lost an engine in a -350 a few thousand feet up on climbout. I can attest to it being less of a big deal than in a straight Navajo (which I have no experience in..Just going from what I've heard from others)-especially given that it wasn't at a critical phase and I was light when it happended. As for the gotchas....I can attest to all of those, but if you're going to check nothing else in a Chieftain, make triple sure that the nose baggage door is secured and be tactile about it when checking it. You DO NOT want that thing coming open on you.

Don't forget the nacelle doors or the rear pax door (not as dangerous but definitely embarrassing). I call it the chieftain circle...

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I used to do Canyon runs from the LA basin to GCN in a Panther. It did great leaving there in the summer full of people, and enough gas to get home which brought it close to max. I also had the joy of flying it into Oceanside, a lot. IIRC, that was 3200', with minor terrain. It handled it really well. I really miss that thing. If I ever found someone who needed help flying one, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Well, yeah... a Panther. I'd probably miss that too, but I don't have $800k laying around to retrofit each of the old birds we fly.

 

[Roger Roger]

I'm going to disagree with both the Van and C90 comparison. I've never flown a -47, but I've been told it's much lighter on the controls than the older models. I liked both the -41 and the -45, but they were both heavy in roll. I probably just don't like the 300 because I can get a smooth flare and landing out of it only about 2 times out of 10 attempts. It's likely just my inability to adapt.

Chieftain full flaps, power idle at 50' ish, roll in a little nose up trim while you flare, and make sure you fly the nose down before you run out of elevator and smack it. Works like a charm.