AA Wholly Owned Upgrade/Flow

flybywp

flybywp

Well-Known Member
My employer offers a program where I can interview and commit to an airline while still instructing and in return receive tuition reimbursement in the form of additional hourly pay. I've been giving a lot of serious consideration to all three AA wholly owned regionals, but specifically Envoy and Piedmont. Just had Piedmont recruiters come to our office the other day and was surprised to hear about the difference in upgrade times and flow between the two.

Piedmont is quoting immediate upgrade upon reaching 1000 121 hours. Envoy is quoting 2.5 years. Both quote about a 5-6 year flow.

Any current Envoy or Piedmont pilots who can shed some light on the actual upgrade and flow times? I'm really more focused on the upgrade times as the flow is not the key factor for my decision.
 
How much money are they offering you and how much longer will you be instructing?
 
$15,000. Same as the signing bonus everyone else gets on day one, but its paid out hourly before I hit 1500. About 10 months until I hit minimums.
 
Personally speaking, I am not a fan of this kind of carrot dangling. Throwing money at you before you go to training on an hourly rate means that you are either going to spend it, or use it to pay down debt/fly more. If you bust your checkride, or need to withdraw from class at the regional for whatever reason, you are now on the hook for 15k you already spent.

Even if you're in a situation where you can just let the 15k simmer in the bank until you finish training, I can't think of a good reason to pigeonhole yourself for 10 months. A lot of changes can happen in that span of time.
Edit: If you like these places and want to go there, sure, take the bonus right before you go to class. I'm not knocking either shop. Just be wary of the whole bonus structure
 
I would blow off Envoy and PSA. Piedmont might be worth considering. You will make more at Endeavor however (probably quite a bit more). I think at Envoy, 2.5 years you are still on reserve as an F/O let alone anywhere near upgrading.

Piedmont is a smaller company and has more movement and growth coming (supposedly).

I agree with the others, just wait till you hit your 1,500 then make your decision. Bonuses most likely will only increase.
 
2010 hires are about to be awarded the upgrade on paper at eagle. No idea when they will start training or flying but assume first 2010 CAs to be on line by EOY.
 
flybywp said:
Piedmont is quoting immediate upgrade upon reaching 1000 121 hours. Envoy is quoting 2.5 years. Both quote about a 5-6 year flow.

Any current Envoy or Piedmont pilots who can shed some light on the actual upgrade and flow times? I'm really more focused on the upgrade times as the flow is not the key factor for my decision.
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There is no such thing as 'current upgrade times.' The only person that has an upgrade time is someone who has already upgraded. Seriously.

When I got hired at ASA we were told our upgrade times should be two years, even though the most junior captain award was a six year guy at the time. I was there 8 years and never upgraded. Meanwhile, recruiting was telling new hires they could expect about a three year upgrade. Basically, the way they figure these upgrade times is using the same type of math that people use to figure out that the average flight instructor makes $70,000 per year; it looks right on paper, but basically doesn't apply to anyone.
 
If you have a squeaky clean and perfect background go wherever, if you don't then I'd go to PDT over Envoy and keep the flow in the back pocket until I get picked up by a place I think I'd be happy hanging my hat.

Going to PDT you'll get 2 types and PIC time quicker than Envoy. Approx. 10% of the pilot group is turning over via the Flow alone each year- that means there will be opportunities for quick upgrades as well as getting involved in other resume building areas to strengthen your application.

I don't work for any regional but I was going to go to PDT before someone stepped in and made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
 
I really appreciate the great advice everyone, thank you. To those saying just stick it out and don't commit, I may just do that. I've really been dragging my feet with this while quite a few of my peers have committed. I've followed this industry for a long time and I know how much can change in 10 months or a year. Reason I ask is because I either have to commit now or I will have too many hours to join the program (as silly as that sounds). I saw someone mention Endeavor, one of my more senior coworkers will be headed there in October. I've been giving them a lot of consideration along with TSA, SkyWest, and Republic. Something just sounds good about committing today and having a job waiting for me. A flow as a backup really helps too (though I am and have been skeptical of someone in my position ever actually flowing anywhere). I've heard good things recently about two of the three AA wholly owned so thought I would ask. I've come this far without committing so I may just wait until I get closer to 1500 in about 6 months.
 
bLizZuE said:
2010 hires are about to be awarded the upgrade on paper at eagle. No idea when they will start training or flying but assume first 2010 CAs to be on line by EOY.
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I'm no expert on exactly how this works just yet, but am I reading it correctly by assuming it is a 6 year upgrade time? Is that likely to change? I've been told the upgrade time into the 170 is significantly shorter than the other types.
 
flybywp said:
I'm no expert on exactly how this works just yet, but am I reading it correctly by assuming it is a 6 year upgrade time? Is that likely to change? I've been told the upgrade time into the 170 is significantly shorter than the other types.
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Type doesn't matter when it comes to upgrade. Senior ERJ or CRJ FOs can bid 175 captain.
 
flybywp said:
I really appreciate the great advice everyone, thank you. To those saying just stick it out and don't commit, I may just do that. I've really been dragging my feet with this while quite a few of my peers have committed. I've followed this industry for a long time and I know how much can change in 10 months or a year. Reason I ask is because I either have to commit now or I will have too many hours to join the program (as silly as that sounds). I saw someone mention Endeavor, one of my more senior coworkers will be headed there in October. I've been giving them a lot of consideration along with TSA, SkyWest, and Republic. Something just sounds good about committing today and having a job waiting for me. A flow as a backup really helps too (though I am and have been skeptical of someone in my position ever actually flowing anywhere). I've heard good things recently about two of the three AA wholly owned so thought I would ask. I've come this far without committing so I may just wait until I get closer to 1500 in about 6 months.
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I didn't lock myself down with a program. I decided to wait it out and get hired without some sort of pipeline program. Best decision I ever made. Even without the program, most airlines will hire you within a few months of you having your time so you still essentially have zero down time between jobs, nor have to worry about looking for a job.
 
flybywp said:
I'm no expert on exactly how this works just yet, but am I reading it correctly by assuming it is a 6 year upgrade time? Is that likely to change? I've been told the upgrade time into the 170 is significantly shorter than the other types.
Click to expand...

If the upgrades touch 2010 hires, then yes, on paper we will have a 6 year upgrade, down from 8 due to no hiring from May 2008 to April 2010. However, when those 2010 hires actually hit the line it might be closer to a true 7 year upgrade.

We only have about 100 ish people left that were 2010 hires so I would expect the upgrade to go to 5/6 years next year.

The junior upgrade right now is the CRJ, not the 175, and no upgrade times are significantly shorter than any other, maybe 100-150 numbers difference, which might represent 1 year of seniority max.
 
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