Colgan 3407 afterthoughts

[rockman2343@aol.com]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Caribbean_Airways_Flight_708

Stalled while climbing on autopilot, Captain held the nose up all the way in to the ground.

And it will happen again.

I've seen some interesting things in the sim teaching some foreign crews, so I don't doubt it will happen again somewhere in the world. I'm strictly talking part 121 here in the states. Again it's not that I think it can't happen, it's just I think it's unlikely here in the states now with out some other aggravating factor leading up to the stall.

 

[Gonzo]

Nothing like a 400? Ok. I didn't miss any of that. Infact if he had powered out of it, he would have likely been ok, especially since the ice switch was on. The plane was not stalled and even with the stall recovery procedures of the time, it was a completely recoverable situation. But he pulled back on the yoke. Was Colgan teaching him that?

As for his training failures I guess you missed that there was more going on with him then just altitude loss on a stall.

You tell me, you seem to have it all figured out. Don't let the fact that there is no fewer than 4 ex-Q-400 check airman on this site, the Colgan MEC chair at the time of the crash and the lead pilot investigator of the crash (the last two I know very will) get in way of you putting your opinion as fact.

 

[rockman2343@aol.com]

You tell me, you seem to have it all figured out. Don't let the fact that there is no fewer than 4 ex-Q-400 check airman on this site, the Colgan MEC chair at the time of the crash and the lead pilot investigator of the crash (the last two I know very will) get in way of you putting your opinion as fact.

Apparently I don't. Just so I understand you though, it was the stall recovery procedure that Colgan was teaching, that caused this accident.
Are these check airmen going to tell me that part of Colgans procedure was pulling aft on the yoke and overiding the stick shaker?

 

[jtrain609]

And an autopilot.

Exactly!

 

[Zapphod Beblebrox]

The next big one may have nothing to do with pilots. I may have to do with outsourced heavy maintenance. There is point in pilot training and operations where you are pushing on spaghetti. That is you are using a lot of resources for very little measurable gain. I think outsourced heavy maintenance may be the next big thing to cause a problem.

Many on this board do not remember but on May 25, 1979, when I was a young flight instructor in the mid-west, American Airlines flight 191 crashed on takeoff from ORD. The right engine came up over the wing and the crew lost the airplane. It was attributed to an improper maintenance procedure on mounting the engine. One of the mechanics involved committed suicide over the accident.

Aircraft now go to South America and the Caribbean, where the airlines assure us that everything is fine and everything is completely airworthy.. Well the next big thing may be happening on the shop floor right now. Improperly installed flaps for instance that depart the aircraft one day. Remember the elevator jam nut on the Alaska MD-80?

The people who work in these hangars are not licensed, they are doing the work because they do it cheap. And if they do it wrong, particularly in heavy maintenance where mistakes can be buried in the air-frame for a time waiting to fail, it may not be discovered by line maintenance of the carrier in time to fix. The crew could be presented with a massive failure of some type that they simply cannot deal with.

I hope an accident does not happen due to foreign maintenance but all the majors and many large regionals have outsourced heavy maintenance and the could be consequences. There does not seem to be adequate FAA oversight.

 

[trafficinsight]

The next big one may have nothing to do with pilots. I may have to do with outsourced heavy maintenance. There is point in pilot training and operations where you are pushing on spaghetti. That is you are using a lot of resources for very little measurable gain. I think outsourced heavy maintenance may be the next big thing to cause a problem.

Many on this board do not remember but on May 25, 1979, when I was a young flight instructor in the mid-west, American Airlines flight 191 crashed on takeoff from ORD. The right engine came up over the wing and the crew lost the airplane. It was attributed to an improper maintenance procedure on mounting the engine. One of the mechanics involved committed suicide over the accident.

Aircraft now go to South America and the Caribbean, where the airlines assure us that everything is fine and everything is completely airworthy.. Well the next big thing may be happening on the shop floor right now. Improperly installed flaps for instance that depart the aircraft one day. Remember the elevator jam nut on the Alaska MD-80?

The people who work in these hangars are not licensed, they are doing the work because they do it cheap. And if they do it wrong, particularly in heavy maintenance where mistakes can be buried in the air-frame for a time waiting to fail, it may not be discovered by line maintenance of the carrier in time to fix. The crew could be presented with a massive failure of some type that they simply cannot deal with.

I hope an accident does not happen due to foreign maintenance but all the majors and many large regionals have outsourced heavy maintenance and the could be consequences. There does not seem to be adequate FAA oversight.

If you're talking about the dangers of outsourced maintenance Alaska 261 is a bad example.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[z987k]

The next big one may have nothing to do with pilots. I may have to do with outsourced heavy maintenance. There is point in pilot training and operations where you are pushing on spaghetti. That is you are using a lot of resources for very little measurable gain. I think outsourced heavy maintenance may be the next big thing to cause a problem.

Many on this board do not remember but on May 25, 1979, when I was a young flight instructor in the mid-west, American Airlines flight 191 crashed on takeoff from ORD. The right engine came up over the wing and the crew lost the airplane. It was attributed to an improper maintenance procedure on mounting the engine. One of the mechanics involved committed suicide over the accident.

Aircraft now go to South America and the Caribbean, where the airlines assure us that everything is fine and everything is completely airworthy.. Well the next big thing may be happening on the shop floor right now. Improperly installed flaps for instance that depart the aircraft one day. Remember the elevator jam nut on the Alaska MD-80?

The people who work in these hangars are not licensed, they are doing the work because they do it cheap. And if they do it wrong, particularly in heavy maintenance where mistakes can be buried in the air-frame for a time waiting to fail, it may not be discovered by line maintenance of the carrier in time to fix. The crew could be presented with a massive failure of some type that they simply cannot deal with.

I hope an accident does not happen due to foreign maintenance but all the majors and many large regionals have outsourced heavy maintenance and the could be consequences. There does not seem to be adequate FAA oversight.

Ya, this does scare me. From what I've read there is literally no FAA oversight.

 

[Blackhawk]

If you're talking about the dangers of outsourced maintenance Alaska 261 is a bad example.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

AAL 191 also a bad example. Maintenance was done by AAL using procedures they were told not to use by McDonald Douglas.

 

[Nark]

And an autopilot.

Kind of a crappy one of you ask me.
Also who ever designed the PFD should, well. not ever be sent flowers on Valentine's Day.
Ever.

 

[Blackhawk]

Ya, this does scare me. From what I've read there is literally no FAA oversight.

The FAA exercises oversight of Sierra West, so that does not mean much.

 

[Ian_J]

Kind of a crappy one of you ask me.
Also who ever designed the PFD should, well. not ever be sent flowers on Valentine's Day.
Ever.

I don't disagree. But, I spent my entire military career up until 5 weeks ago flying D model Chinooks and A/L Hawks... So from that perspective this thing is PFM.

But... Because I've done some civilian aviation and and keep up with civilian aviation, yeah, Mike leaves a lot to be desired. The PFD yeah - it was retarded trying to mimic a standard six pack, but my biggest beef is with the flight plan features and the rediculous lack of /G functionality.

 

[z987k]

The FAA exercises oversight of Sierra West, so that does not mean much.

Yes... but at least it's something I guess. I mean at least here in the states they generally make sure you paperwork is in order no matter how much you're violating everything else or even if the paperwork has nothing to do with reality on it.

 

[Blackhawk]

Yes... but at least it's something I guess. I mean at least here in the states they generally make sure you paperwork is in order no matter how much you're violating everything else or even if the paperwork has nothing to do with reality on it.

They will still have to meet FAA standards. The only problem is that it is difficult for the FAA to inspect these facilities and there is little chance of a surprise inspection.

 

[deadstick]

FWIW, ATS started doing work for Hawaiian and Air Canada last year at the old TWA overhaul base at MCI.

Bring your planes, and get some BBQ!

 

[z987k]

They will still have to meet FAA standards. The only problem is that it is difficult for the FAA to inspect these facilities and there is little chance of a surprise inspection.

Right. There's almost no chance they can adequately inspect them from everything I've read.

 

[deadstick]

Right. There's almost no chance they can adequately inspect them from everything I've read.

When the manuals are in English and the techs don't read English...

 

[msmspilot]

When the manuals are in English and the techs don't read English...

Well, to be fair, the facility in Mobile, AL had that problem...

 

[ORDinarily]

How did you come up with 2 years as your cutoff for safety? Just curious. The crj by far is the easiest or second easiest 121 plane I've flown out of the 5 I've flown. Hands down the easiest landing airplane ever built that I've flown. Swept wing planes are just as easy as straight wing in my opinion. Fms made navigation much easier imho.

This may be true, but last year at ORD a GoJets CRJ quite easily pulled onto 28R at F while an envoy flight was on the takeoff roll. Envoy was too fast to stop, drifted off centerline to avoid them, rotated shortly after. Captain estimated 20' from collision. When I brief our taxi I refer to the hotspot on the airport diagram there as the GoJet hotspot. Stay vigilant, even when the job seems easy.

 

[z987k]

This may be true, but last year at ORD a GoJets CRJ quite easily pulled onto 28R at F while an envoy flight was on the takeoff roll. Envoy was too fast to stop, drifted off centerline to avoid them, rotated shortly after. Captain estimated 20' from collision. When I brief our taxi I refer to the hotspot on the airport diagram there as the GoJet hotspot. Stay vigilant, even when the job seems easy.

They did the same thing to SWA in DTW in 2014 I think it was. SWA rotated early.

 

[mastermags]

Apparently I don't. Just so I understand you though, it was the stall recovery procedure that Colgan was teaching, that caused this accident.
Are these check airmen going to tell me that part of Colgans procedure was pulling aft on the yoke and overiding the stick shaker?

You have ceased making a point.