The "cancelled" Delta 737-900's and Embraer 190's

Ecl!pse said:
DL needs more 100-130 seat aircraft to upgauge/park the 50-seaters. Unfortunately, there are very few 717's available in the market right now, so they started shopping for the next most attractive option -- which, at the point DL signed the contract, was the E190. E190 market values are depressed at the moment as there are quite a few in storage or being actively marketed, so DL capitalized on the market softness to get a type (100 - 130 seat aircraft) they needed anyway. I suspect that Boeing gave them very, very attractive E190 lease rates (probably enough to offset most of the fuel burn/operational disadvantages) in exchange for the 737-900ER order.
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They shoulda bought the C-Series instead. On paper it is a more technologically advanced plane, and the main reason Embrarer created the E2 versions of the e-jet. Bombardier is so hungry right now, they would have given them away for a song and a thank you.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
They shoulda bought the C-Series instead. On paper it is a more technologically advanced plane, and the main reason Embrarer created the E2 versions of the e-jet. Bombardier is so hungry right now, they would have given them away for a song and a thank you.
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It's a good airplane on paper, I think this transaction is indicative of how desperate (re: not very) Bombardier is at the moment - the discount to attract customers hasn't been enough to date. Too much risk with the program/company right now. It makes sense for DL, with their phenomenal Tech Ops program, to take the 10 year old E190's, operate them for 5-10 years, and have an E2 vs. CSeries bake-off down the road (assuming both companies are still around) when these frames and the 717s need to be replaced. It also doesn't help CSeries case that fuel is below $40/barrel, and these frames will probably operate on short stages, so the fuel burn improvement is a bit muted (still there, just takes longer to recoup the up-front investment of purchasing the airplane).

We'll see which direction UAL goes with their 100-seat decision -- I expect BBD to be more competitive and it to be a difficult decision in Chicago.
 
jtrain609 said:
No they don't. The internet says they don't so they can't. The e-Jet series has been completely unsucessful, which is why no regionals fly them and no mainline carriers order them. Ever!!!


/sarcasm
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Someones been reading the pilot wives Facebook groups, eh? :)

"You have a minimum guarantee as a line holder"

"No I don't"

"Facebook says"

*facepalm*
 
Derg said:
Someones been reading the pilot wives Facebook groups, eh? :)

"You have a minimum guarantee as a line holder"

"No I don't"

"Facebook says"

*facepalm*
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Exactly.

It's like hearing about how JetBlue HATES their EMB-190's, and how they just want to get rid of them at any cost.

Enough guys repeat it, and folks start to believe it.

Do those guys take note that there are something like 250 of THE EXACT SAME AIRCRAFT being operated at regionals, with a whole bunch more on order? Of course not, because someone heard from a friend who talked with the janitor that emptied the trash of the fleet manager at JetBlue that an APU was on deferral one day, and that must mean that the entire fleet is worthless.

I've got news for all ya'll, if JetBlue hated their EMB-190's, they would have sold them with the quickness. Why? Because JetBlue is run by smart people who like to make lots and lots of money. Smart people who like making money don't hold on to a failing airframe for giggles.
 
Derg said:
Like I said before, I've got "Romper Room/TEEN FORUM!" turned off once the jackassery begins. A man knows when it's time to work and it's time to play.
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We are to have it on. 8(.
Only off to call ops
 
Well the thinking is if you can buy a 190 why not just buy an a319 with 20 more seats and all the range and cost benefits of it ,that's parkers line anyway. Why have a fleet of 20 or so planes with all the MX and Bs that goes along with that when you can just add a subfleet of the same type that use all the same spare parts and pilots. The fuel burn of the 319 and e190 are pretty much the same at altitude anyway.

Maximillian_Jenius said:
They shoulda bought the C-Series instead. On paper it is a more technologically advanced plane, and the main reason Embrarer created the E2 versions of the e-jet. Bombardier is so hungry right now, they would have given them away for a song and a thank you.
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only one airline bought the c-series, Swiss International and that was to replace their 4 holers.
 
A little birdy reminds the thread that these jets were actually pre-owned and sitting, unwanted, on Boeing's balance sheet. So it's not as much a "We want E190s" as much as it's "Well, we can't throw in the floor mats with this 737-900 order, but how about we make you a special deal on these sweet, totally cherry jets that are sitting here on our backlot?" :)
 
skyw82 said:
Well the thinking is if you can buy a 190 why not just buy an a319 with 20 more seats and all the range and cost benefits of it ,that's parkers line anyway. Why have a fleet of 20 or so planes with all the MX and Bs that goes along with that when you can just add a subfleet of the same type that use all the same spare parts and pilots. The fuel burn of the 319 and e190 are pretty much the same at altitude anyway.



only one airline bought the c-series, Swiss International and that was to replace their 4 holers.
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The above statement on E190's vs. A319's is true in an "arms length" transaction -- but reality is far from "ideal." E190 market values have been depressed since these things have been stored and actively marketed, while A319 values (which were depressed for some time) have likely firmed up since UAL committed to taking a bunch off the market. Boeing likely offered a lease rate too good to pass up on the E190's (in exchange for the 739 order) that offset most/all of the E190 unit cost deficiency.

I doubt that at the end of the day Delta really cared what the 100-seat platform was, they just care that they got what they needed (100-seater) and that the economics of the transaction made sense for them. E190, CS100, SSJ100, 717, C919 -- as long as the business case made sense, they probably would have taken it (being a bit facetious with Russian/Chinese built planes, but trying to make a point).
 
The purchase prices of aircraft is a negligible aspect of their operating costs.

For example, the A319 burns roughly $5,000,000 ($5 mil) in fuel a year at current prices. Flight crew costs are another >$1 mil/yr. That doesn't include mx upkeep which is also not insignificant, typically it's 2x-3x the fuel burn costs. "List price" is close to $90 mil, however they were being bought by financing companies for under $30 mil new from the factory due to low demand.

This is why older jets are cheap to acquire. It's not the purchase price that gets you (a nicer Citation 500 is only $400k or so) it's the upkeep and operating costs that makes them so expensive.
 
wheelsup said:
The purchase prices of aircraft is a negligible aspect of their operating costs.

For example, the A319 burns roughly $5,000,000 ($5 mil) in fuel a year at current prices. Flight crew costs are another >$1 mil/yr. That doesn't include mx upkeep which is also not insignificant, typically it's 2x-3x the fuel burn costs. "List price" is close to $90 mil, however they were being bought by financing companies for under $30 mil new from the factory due to low demand.

This is why older jets are cheap to acquire. It's not the purchase price that gets you (a nicer Citation 500 is only $400k or so) it's the upkeep and operating costs that makes them so expensive.
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The purchase price is not negligible, at all. The low purchase price (re: lease rate, in this case) is exactly what offsets the high upkeep (fuel burn/maintenance) that you note above. If the purchase price were negligible, DL would have ordered CS100's, with low MX costs and low fuel costs.
 
In a business where magazines are ditched in the cabin for weight savings, every penny is pinched.

There is probably a whole room of accountants that crunch numbers in which jets to buy and overall lifecycle costs vs revenue.
 
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